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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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worth reading just for the 'whole in one' pun, I'd say..
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GemmaJF
Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359 |
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I wonder if the frog survived more than a few hours after the encounter? I've seen several die within 12 hours after attempted takes by grass snakes. Always wondered if it was a form of shock or if grassies actually have something in their saliva that causes it.
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Iowarth
Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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Hi Gemma
I am trying desperately to find the relevant paper, but some research was carried out a (very) few years back which showed that most non-boid snakes had venom glands and produced venom. Many of them, of course, like the Grass Snake lack an effective means of delivery. If memory serves me correctly, Tony Phelps had a reasonably bad experience with a Smooth Snake once - I think mainly because they chew! If he is reading perhaps he will confirm - or tell me I'm hallucinating! Chris |
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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Hi Chris - you beat me to it, I was going to add the same comment - I think there is a German-sounding name for the glands that produce the mild venom, but I can't remember the name at the moment...
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Iowarth
Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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ROFL - you and me both Will. Probably the man who can enlighten us is Wolfgang WΓΌster who gave a talk about this at an FBH Conference a few years back. He is a member of the forum, and occasionally posts so .............
Yooohoo ................Wolfgang Chris |
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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Duvernoy's glands - it came to me over my dinner, just in case Wolfgang doesn't pick up on this!
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Iowarth
Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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Well remembered Will. And that opens things wide to numerous papers on the internet.
The summary appears to be that these glands, which are present in all but about 17% of colubrids, produce a variety of chemicals, the purpose of which is not known (my thought - at least in part to aid digestion) some of which are toxic. Like the venoms of viperids and elapids a number of complex (albeit different) proteins are produced. These only flow into the mouth rather than "pressured" as in viperids and elapids. There is some observational evidence to suggest that it does actually serve as venom to at least sedate prey. It is probably unwise to refer to such animals "venomous" as this ability is very limited and does not appear to be a primary means of prey subjugation or defense. Chris I think that sums it up! |
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
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GemmaJF
Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359 |
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Excellent that solves that one then!
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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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yes it's fascinating that, whilst not being venomous in the classic sense of actively injecting toxins into the prey, a combination of the toxins in the saliva and the puncturing of the prey by their numerous teeth apparently gives even a grass snake some power to paralyse / disable its prey. A bit like the Komodo dragon, I suppose.
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Paul Ford
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 196 |
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Interesting stuff
Back to the story, is it just me (a cynical old git) that can see no way back for that frog..? It seems very unlikely to me that it leapt to safety (not without some kind of intervention). I reckon the story has been changed to give a happy ending (sorry frog lovers!) Paul |
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