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Reptile translocation - UPDATE

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herpetologic2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2008 at 12:19pm

I would have to say that there is plenty of habitat within a stones throw of the site - the great crested newts went to a receptor site - effectively a farm - of over 50hectares - but the reptiles and other amphibians went to Wiltshire.

Has anyone had any response from DP World?

 

J

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AGILIS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 4:39am
Hi Tony does this genetic thing  it realy matter?  I was of the opinion that  injecting new blood into the life chain   has alway been the best way of stopping sterility and bad  inbreeding, But I dont know what the impact as to diseases  from other sites may incur  if that is the major issue on translocating animals from other areas ?. and to be honest most of us are just happy knowing that there are healthy wide spread abundant colonies existing as I am sure you are.keith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 6:13am

Genetics is not that simple - introducing genes from outside of the local population would potentially have unknown effects - genetic outbreeding rather than genetic inbreeding - so translocating genes great distances into other populations should be discouraged.

Besides there isnt any evidence that translocated animals will survive long term - The adder study in sweden showed that new genes passed into a genetically inbred population helped restore their fortunes - you have to remember that only 8 male adders survived and were taken back to their natal population.

Most translocations in the UK are often rushed and are not as well planned.

Unofficially reptiles are moved around the country in mitigation projects - this project was sanctioned it seems by the government and Natural England. Other projects in the UK have moved adders for example over 40km and these are also sanctioned.

The use of translocation should be the last resort - but the situation seems to be the first port of call - development is designed and then the site is surveyed for reptiles leading to little option but to translocate.....

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2008 at 1:51am
All this genetic and trans debate as saying there isnt any evidence that animals will survive long term after being translocated . What evidence says they wont, And  not many of us have the time or specialised monitoring equipment to keep  a watch on a lizards progress and survival throughout  the season even if we do see it  more then once in a location as they do move about of their own choice so can dissapear at any time !, survival also depends on what predators there are in the vicinity and other hazards , Are we all going down the same line in conserving herps as the pc health and safety brigade that has  completely lost touch with reality.  You dont need  an academic back ground in genetics to save a few reptiles!.  It may have been  used by Darwin in his statments about species in isolation and how they evolved with variations in exstreme cases, I realy cant see the genetics of common liz grass snake adders an all being under some threat in this country by moving them to another retreat, you might get greener lv in some area or darker ones elswhere, this is to do with the areas natural terrain colouration and vegitation and the reptiles natural chromataphoric metabolism not new immigrants, mind you I am only a beginer with only  50 years in rescuing reptiles who did not do a herps degree at Essex uni lol Keith

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2008 at 6:06am

At the recent HCT/ARG meeting in Manchester, there was an example given of the introduction of fresh blood (three male adders added to a declining and isolated population) vastly improving the lot of a colony in demise.

Forgive my ignorance also, but could somebody give me an example from any study that proves that "mixing" gene pools in GB is actually detrimental to the species concerned?

I must admit that I struggle a little with the idea.  If we were talking about Madagascar for example where Panther chameleons at one end of the country live in very different climatic conditions to animals at the other, and are apparent as several clearly distinctive ôlocalesö, then I would find it easier to understand any such reservations.  Island races of foreign taxa and established locales of poison dart frog in the vast continent of south America are also examples where I would fully agree that translocation from one area of entirely different humidity and climatic conditions to another, separated for a substantial time period and many hundreds of miles away would be potentially catastrophic.

Comparatively speaking though, are L.a for example, from Southport really that far removed genetically from L.a from Dorset?   Given that a squirrel could at one time "travel from land`s end to Scotland tree to tree", could that mean that the original habitat for L.a is dune systems and not man made heathland?  If so, is it really that long ago in reptile evolutionary terms that the two were connected?  I do appreciate that there is a Lancashire "race" and a Dorset "race", the differences are pretty subtle though, and some Dorset animals are indistinguishable from Lancashire animals and vice versa.  How long a time period do we estimate that the northern and southern colonies have been separated?

Generally speaking, I do not hold too much faith in translocation, or at least in the rather thoughtless manner in which it seems to be done all too often (as seems to be the case at the beginning of this thread).  I do think that it is a favoured option when compared to euthanasia however.  On this tiny island that we live on, I also wonder whether ôspecies isolationö (other than comparatively recent instances orchestrated by man) is really as much of a concern as it would be in a much larger and diverse geographical area such as Indonesia for example.

Sorry, I have strayed somewhat from the original subject, but would like to be enlightened further.



Edited by Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2008 at 5:33pm

I think the precautionary principle applies here - we need to keep animals as close as we can to their original sites - we do not need animals to be karted around the countryside - reptiles have very limited dispersal rates and so populations will remain distinct from each other for many thousands of years - it is possibly more to do with locally adapted genes and preventing these from being mixed up and producing ill effects.

I have searched google scholar and I have found these papers on genetics - I feel that this work can be related to the type of translocations which are occurring every year in the UK and we ar emeant o be conserving the species now they ar elisted under the BAP - 

Outbreeding depression in the common frog, Rana temporaria

http://www.springerlink.com/content/lv68m29432114864/

Genetics and extinction

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi =B6V5X-4GFCT1R-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_ori g=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_ve rsion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7c5bf10fa43 b89a732cc7c0ad578ee45

Haldane rules: costs of outbreeding at production of daughters in sand lizards

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118811120/abstrac t?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

The alluring simplicity and complex reality of genetic rescue http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi =B6VJ1-4CVX3R6-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_ori g=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_ve rsion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b7558eca38b bca9789fe9a8dc8596b54

Conservation Units and Translocations: Strategies for Conserving Evolutionary Processes

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119062991/abstrac t

There ar emany more papers on many different species but th emost interesting is the papers on common frog, adder and sand lizard

J

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2008 at 4:52am

Adders for instance in Essex are very much local species and so we wouldnt want animals to be moved without very good justification - reintroducing adders into London populations or Hertfordshire using rescued adder neonates from local development sites.

There is a decline of adders in Epping Forest - perhaps thats related to changing habitats through succession or heavy management but it may also be related to the many adders which were rescued from various other locations and placed into Epping.

Surrey, Buckinghamshire, Essex and other locations were the scene of adder rescues during the 1950's, 60's and 70's they may have survived and bred with the locals - we just dont know so I would be more cautious and keep adder movement local.

Some people feel that it isnt a big deal but until we know we should be consecutive with the distances reptiles are moved.

J

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2008 at 6:33am

 

Interesting links Jon, typically the one that i really wanted to see wouldn`t work, the sand lizard link.

Originally posted by herpetologic2 herpetologic2 wrote:

Some people feel that it isnt a big deal but until we know we should be consecutive with the distances reptiles are moved.

Well said.   

I do not have a great deal of faith in translocation and feel that it should be a last resort.  I just wonder how significant ESU`s are, and how they are decided to be in existence on this tiny island that we live on?  Also, is there an estimation of the time period that the Lancashire and Dorset races of L.a have been isolated from one another?

 

Cheers

 

EDIT:  The agilis link did work second attempt!?  Both interesting and revealing.  I noticed that the "cross breeding" referred to was between one popultation of L.a in Sweden, and one in central Europe.  Have any similar studies been undertaken involving the Northern and Southern races of L.a in GB which I am assuming (I don`t like to use that word!) are closer both geographically and phenotypically to one another than is the case with the Swiss/central European study?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2008 at 7:15am
with regards to the adders geting a bit rare in Epping forest, were I gained my early herp experience as it being local to where I lived , the main reason for the demise is nought to do with genetics , just over use of the forest and their habitats being disturbed, I think Rob will back me up on that one . Also  just to point out I agree long distant tranlocating should not be done as there are plenty of nearby sites in most local  vicinitys where they can be placed . keith

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2008 at 11:38am

Hi Keith

I agree that it may be due to the over management of the forest to restore the SSSI interest while not much thought towards the other SSSI features -  the reptiles and amphibians. Epping Forest is one of two SSSI's which has reptiles and amphibians listed as interest features of the SSSI. The other SSSI is Benfleet and Hadleigh Downs. 

There has been a long history of introductions though from snake rescues in the past from sites such as Benfleet Downs and other sites. We do not know whether these animal survived and bred in Epping. Reduced survivorship can also be related to the genes in the population.

 

Jon

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