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QÆs for Wolfgang, Tony ,David etc..

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Alan Hyde View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Aug 2003 at 7:03pm
Was just watching Killer instinct on Nat'Geo', and Rob had a death adder . Now , when it was feeding I noticed fang walking and definite hinge like movement. So what do you think ? Is this snake evolving from Elapid into viperid, or Viperid into elapid ? If it really is an elapid what are the Characteristics that define it as Elapid? Is it Neurotoxic venom?

Cheers,
Alan

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-LAF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote -LAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2003 at 9:40pm
Good one Alan, I remember seeing a Taipan site once with some close ups of the fangs and they looked highly mobile too. Dunno if it's an Australian thing. Or perhaps I was drunk. I'm sure other elapid gobs I've seen contain well-fixed fangs.

Cheers, Lee.
Lee Fairclough
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Alan Hyde View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 10:09am
Many thanks Lee,David, Tony.

Alan
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Wolfgang Wuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 11:00am
Alan,

Yes, death adders do have mobile fangs, but no amount of fang mobility makes them into a viper, even though it may make them more similar to a viper.

Remember that groups such as elapids, vipers, etc, are defined on the basis of evolutionary history, i.e., who they share the most recent common ancestor with, not on the basis of what features they possess. Death adders share their most recent common ancestor with other elapids, and the fact that they indepedently evolved a degree of fang mobility does not change that.

Birds and bats are the obvious analogy - despite having wings, bats are descended from other mammals and therefore are mammals, not birds - the wings were evolved independently.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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Alan Hyde View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 11:41am
Hi Wolfgang ,and thanks.

Ok , let me rephrase this . I'm not saying I think Death adders are Vipers . What I mean is , Do you think that given enough time the death adder could develop more viper attributes and eventually leave it's elapid ancestors further behind?

Thanks for everyones thoughts,
Alan
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Alan Hyde View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 11:57am
Also, I've just been looking through my books , but only have two pics of the death adder. Neither pic shows the eyes clearly , does this species have a vertical slit pupil or rounded ?

Thanks,
Alan
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Wolfgang Wuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 12:43pm


Vertically slit - check this specimen David Williams and I caught in PNG last year.

BTW, there are a number of other Aussie elapids which also have vertical pupils.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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Alan Hyde View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 12:50pm
Great pic, and a great looking snake

Thanks Wolfgang,
Alan
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Wolfgang Wuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2003 at 1:12pm
As to whether they will develop into even more viper-like snakes - that's anyone's guess, there is no way of telling. At the moment, at least some of the species are probably more likely to go extinct, thanks to habitat destruction and/or cane toads.

Cheers,

Wolfgang

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Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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