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Allerthorpe

Printed From: Reptiles and Amphibians of the UK
Category: Conservation
Forum Name: Habitat Loss
Forum Description: Use this forum to highlight harmful development projects and other issues involving habitat destruction
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4090
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 9:36pm
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Topic: Allerthorpe
Posted By: Chris d
Subject: Allerthorpe
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 11:26am
Hi Everyone,
 
Has anyone else been to Allerthorpe near York recently ? It's a local lowland heathland and pine forest that has a wealth of reptile and amphibians not to mention birdlife and other wildlife. I've just been today and can't believe the work that they are carrying out there.  I acknowledge that there is a problem with birch trees growing through the heathland causing shade and generally taking over the habitat but the work that is been done to combat this beggars belief. Heavy machinery, diggers etc has been brought in and vast areas have been cleared down to soil level leaving bare earth compacted down with tyre marks ! A few very small islands have been left within these bare areas but they are very few. Notices have been posted stating that the work does look drastic but heather will grow back and it has been done with the full backing of Natural England. How can they justify this destruction of habitat ? The questions that spring to mind are;
 
1)Why carry out such drastic work at such an important time of year when animals are just coming out of hibernation ?
 
2)Will the hibernation areas be damaged/ covered over. Thus preventing the reptiles emerging ? And if they do won't they be so exposed to predators ?
 
3) Would professional bodies have first been consulted that has the expertese on the impact on reptiles and such like ?
 
4) If the area has been cleared to soil level Wouldn't trees and grass be the first things that start to grow rather than heather, therefore making the problem even worse in the future ?     
 
I'm sure that more questions will spring to mind and I'll post them later with pics when I get time. Seeing is believing the mess that they have caused ! Can anyone put my mind at rest or at least confirm that what they were doing is in the long term interest of the local wildlife especially reptiles ? To me they haven't considered them at all. One of the worse areas is where last year I noted between 30 and 40 common lizards all on one footpath that has now been obliterated, leaving nothing. This adds to my opinion of the work that has been carried out in previous years. For example, prime Adder and common lizard habitat heath (near the main disecting footpath) that has been take down to ground level leaving no cover for them, Nothing has been seen in that area since. Strimming which has resulted in Adder deaths. The use of weedkiller that was sprayed in certain areas. I thought that such habitat was protected legally ?
 
I know that there is some very knowledgeable people here (you know who you are !) and I would really appreciate your opinions.
 
Regards,
 
Chris  
 



Replies:
Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 12:32pm
I am no expert let me say but we've had a lot of his in East Devon. Have they been scraping the ground to get rid of the vegetation and roots? There has been trouble here with the archeology being damaged - tumuli etc. - and I thought this method was discredited for this reason. Not all archaeological features are known and it is possible they will destroy any unknown ones. OK archaeologists are not a big hit with herpers but they have some interests in common.

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Suz


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 12:47pm
Answers:

1) Because it is convenient and fits the funding scheme

2) Yes 

3) No. Well yes. Generally the owners of the land, NT, Wildlife Trusts will have been consulted. Though to describe these bodies as having expertise regarding the impact on reptiles would be rather stretching the point. So the real answer is no, they would not consult real experts because anyone who actually knew anything about reptiles would oppose the works and cause a lot of fuss as it will no doubt be detrimental to herp species. This would upset lots of people because after all they get money to do this work and it keeps them in their jobs.

4) Probably nothing will grow there for years. If anything does appear in the area as it is gardened for heather by willing volunteers it will still be useless for herpetofauna because the underlying three dimensional soil structure will have been totally lost and will take decades to recover. By that time there will probably be no herps left to recolonise.

Welcome to the 'heathland management' debate!

The whole area would have been better managed by felling the birch every 20 years or so and building log piles. That would be great for herps but unfortunately heather is the flavour of the day so all else goes to cultivate it. Reminds me more of arable farming than conservation.


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 1:44pm
Thanks Jemma and Suzi,
 
That's what it reminds me of; a ploughed field. The volunteers from the wildlife trust had tried to keep on top of the young trees and at one time I was going to offer my services until I saw how mis-managed and badly led they were. They had built log piles but then as stated earlier, destroyed habitats, strimmed without due care and in addition driven down the paths compacting them making the area liabel to flood in future. It isn't just a few areas, it is acres and acres of prime reptile habitat I couldn't see how the area would be gardened and heather planted due to the size. Yes, the top growth has been scraped away leaving bare earth and nothing else.
 
Now that my worst fears have been confirmed I'm absolutely gutted. I was hoping that the people in charge of the project would know what they were doing and my mind would be put at rest by a positive answer from yourselves. Bugger, I really feel like crying !!  I thought that the law would protect herps from this mis-management, isn't it illegal to damage the areas and kill our native reptiles ? How can these idiots get away with this sort of thing and  thinking about it, can action be taken against them ?  I'm quite prepared to take it further and I'm sure that others would back me up judging from the mood of other people that I met in the forest. It seems like a whole ecosystem has been destroyed.
 
Chris 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 4:05pm
Thanks for your post Chris
 
Sorry to hear about that, and i'm gutted to read your story.
 
Unfortunately, this is something that happens a lot, esp with wildlife trusts, and as widespread reptile habitat isn't protected as much as the rarer reptiles, they can do whatever they like. If there were sand lizards or smooth snakes present, then yes careful consideration would have been taken into account and that would have been compulsory.
 
It's sad i must admit but like Gemma says, if they had any knowledge of reptiles, and the optimal times of year for carrying out such work, this would never have been allowed to happen.
 
It could be regarded as reckless or deliberate killing of reptiles if they knew that reptiles were using this area.
 
This is one of the reasons we don't get involved with local conservation groups sadly.


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 6:19pm
I think they are doing loads of un friendly destroying tons of rep habitat work on the north east Suffolk heaths right now at Dunich and Tunstall heath and of course all in the name of the RSPB tidy up brigade with eco friendly plant this is the one in the pic they are proud and boasting about as in the pic keith

Sorry about the quality of pic but the underneath heading say restoring Suffolks heathlands what a effing joke they mean destroying, Its happening this week and in future weeks to come .




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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 6:47pm
They should know better to be honest.
 
Hang on, did you say that in Suffolk heathland owned by RSPB?  Oh jeepers, yes you did Unhappy
 
If the same man is still in charge now, then he really should know better. He should know about the needs of reptiles, and the potential of reptiles being present there, as some of us here used to work in that area (no names) and ensured that the main people in charge were aware of the reptile potential etc.
 
Looks like they didn't listen, but then again nothing surprises me with these conservation groups.
 
Looks like another example of mis-management.
 
Maybe the Reptile Mitigation guidelines/best practice guidelines should include a section for conservation groups in relation to habitat management and optimal timescales for carrying out such work.
 
But this info is already available in the Reptile Habitat Management Handbook and it states in there somewhere that "as long as you are taking reasonable measures, then you are unlikely to be prosecuted for reckless killing of reptiles whilst carrying out habitat management work" (or something along those lines - will get exact words later). I don't call either of these examples "reasonable measures" as it is the wrong time of year and the methods described are not what I would call "reasonable measures".
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 7:59pm
Hi,
 
Thanks everyone for your postings, it is good to see that there is people who care deeply about such issues. It is shocking to find that it seems to be common practice and that such drastic measures are happening in other places. I have just completed a strong letter of complaint to the idiots at natural england demanding answers. I am so upset with this that I am determined to take it further and not just let it go.  I am going to write to the local paper and speak to others to try to drum up awareness. I'll keep you informed with the developments.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 9:53pm
It's good you are taking a stance on this Chris and I fully support you.

As someone who has been there, you will likely get the runaround from each organisation involved. NE will say they trust the wildlife trust to know what they are doing. The wildlife trust will say NE sanctioned the work and therefore it must have been OK. They will claim no reptiles were killed and the work benefited reptiles, which is a load of old tosh and so it will go on.

The only legal recourse is to prove illegal killing of protected species. We know they will have been illegally killed and will certainly be predated if they were not, but proving it and then getting it to magistrate court will not be an easy task.

I strongly believe the only way to stop this wholesale destruction is to actually prosecute a wildlife trust or other organisation. I am very sad that it has come to that but having tried every other imaginable avenue I do not really know what is left to do.

Keep us informed, some pictures of the destruction on the forum for all to see may be of benefit too.


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 7:40am
The thing is we all know how the pine trees have blanked out heath lands and find nothing wrong if they fell the viral trees to aid heather growth but surely this can be done in a eco friendly way,without bringing in things like bulldozers ripping the undergrowth up. ps this item can be found in this week ends East Anglian daily time it takes up 3 pages of mainly interested parties like the rspb veiws on how the heath should look even though none of them remember how it was before the lesser spotted bastard went into decline.

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:02am
It is all down to cost Keith. Far cheaper to bring in plant machinery and clear the entire area in a day or two than pay people to fell individual trees and manage sympathetically for wildlife.

The entire process is cost and funding driven. The attitude to wildlife legislation is that if they did the work in accordance to the legislation they would get nothing done. The answer to the why is that these people get funding for these schemes. I find the whole practice of heathland management using plant machinery quite remarkable in a day in age where we are all supposed to be more environmentally aware. The 'conservation organisations' are the ones destroying the existing habitat of many species, not just herps, in the name of conservation and getting paid to do it.


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 7:58pm
Hi,
I've just visited the common again this afternoon after finishing work to take a more rational look at it. Nope I'm still seething !! I spoke to the guys doing the clearing and explained my concerns and basically told me that they had been contracted in to do the work. I was told that an "Adder" guy had been consulted (I didn't get his name, damn!) before the work had gone ahead and he wasn't happy, but accepted it. The contracters weren't very sympathetic and were ther just doing a job.  They were in another area bordering which is a little known adder hotspot where I had observed 4/5 Adders basking last year. It took me years to find it and now there is a real possibility that it will be erased. I explained to the contractors but recieved little sympathy from them. Maybe it will be still there tommorrow but I won't hold my breath as it only a small area. I had a good look around while I was there and there was nothing out anywhere. They have left a few small islands but only in some areas, other areas have been completely cleared. The birch has also been cleared by hand along the pathways too but has then been thrown/piled onto of the heather with no thought. It is quite a mess ! When I can work it out I will submit some pics. Thanks again fro everyones advice and concern.  
 
The good news is that after writing a letter to the local paper they are going to cover a story regarding it ! Fame at last !! And after advice from this forum, next I'm going to write a letter to my local MP.


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:32pm
That's good to know that you are doing something positive by talking to the contractors Chris and highlighting important issues. Sounds to me like they are just "general contractors", and not "ecological contractors".
 
If the conservation organisation were really taking wildlife into account, i reckon they would have used ecological contractors to do the work. The benefit of using ecological contractors is that they know about the needs of wildlife, including herps. And their rates are pretty good too so wouldn't have cost them more than just general contractors.
 
If they had spoken to the "adder expert", he would have known that it was an inappropriate time of year and should not have encouraged it. If he wasn't happy, then why did he let this go ahead. If I was in that position, I would say "no, it's not an appropriate time of year and it will result in the killing and injury of protected species." That's what I am finding hard to understand. Unless he did say that, but they went ahead anyway - in which case, that is really not good news at all.
 
Let us know how you get on though. Glad that the local press are taking an interest. Really highlights the importance of the needs of reptiles, the value of managing reptile habitat properly, and the fact that widespread reptile habitat isn't as protected as the rarer reptiles. And the fact that conservation organisations are damaging habitats when they should really be saving them.
 
I'll get that "text" for you too Chris, and PM you with it, so that you can use it.


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:44pm
Hi Here's some pics of allerthorpe, you have to imagine the area before the work started, mainly heather dotted with birch. The last pic is of the area where I had just found 30 to 40 common lizards the year before. Imagine a pathway meandering with high heather on both sides, now just erased.
  
 
 
 


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:56pm
Sorry, this is the lizard area. Directly in front would have been the small path leading through the heather to the other side, full of lizards, now there is nothing.
 
 


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 12:00am
Sadly Chris many of us can post pictures almost identical to yours, but scattered from across the country. My brother knows of a colony of sand lizards wiped out some years ago by the NT building a car park, and a GCN pond ruined by their digging it out and damaging the natural clay lining so that it never held water again.

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Suz


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:50am
good grief Chris looks identical to my postings on the damage the rspb did on Hyde heath Dorset the other year they must have a set agenda for all opps to have the same template effect where ever they let loose the Cat D8s & D9s in the guise of heath restoration. keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: arvensis
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 12:30pm
In my opinion, what has happened there is no different to an arsonist destroying part of a heathland! 

The 'work' has been done with the full backing of Natural England you say? Considering they issue licences for the fully protected species, it makes me wonder if they are a suitable body for doing so, if they fully back habitiat destruction such as this.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:28pm
Thanks for posting the pictures Chris, as others have said, identical to what I have seen elsewhere on many occasions.

When I look at it I see the same pattern. An open area, highly suitable for reptiles completely destroyed. Areas of more mature woodland left entirely untouched. Surely clearing some of that pine plantation would have been a better use of the money.

Most of these organisations will employ exactly the same contractors that would work on a building site (they'll simply go with the lowest bid for the work and 'divert' the rest of the funds they obtained for 'heathland management' elsewhere) so no surprise to me what the result is. That of course is another 'dodge' when they get flak from the public... oh it was the contractors fault... in fact the contractors are the least guilty as they are simply doing what they have been told to do.

I am really sorry Chris you have had to witness this sort of conservation (read as wholesale habitat destruction) at a site you obviously previously enjoyed, but if it helps a little I know all too well how it feels.



Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 11:36pm
Thanks for the pics Chris. Just makes me feel sick really. But just like everyone else has already said, the scene in the picture is all too familiar.
 
I agree with Gemma comments though on the contractors, totally. They are just instructed on what to do, and really it should be the person instructing them who should be held responsible. Agreed that most contractors brought on sites are just general building contractors, not ecological contractors.
 
We here at SE always use ecological contractors.  Ecological contractors have the expertise and understanding of the needs for wildlife, and I can certainly recommend a few companies to the relevant organisations if needed as we have a coupl of firms who do regular work for us, and what's more they do a fine job too.
 
The fact is that the adder expert should have been on site supervising the contractors to make sure that reptiles were not harmed during the process. This is what we always do, even with ecological contractors, because this is regarded as what NE woudl call a "reasonable measure" and it makes sure that reptiles are safetly moved out of the way beforehand. It's a simple search - just like you do when you put in a reptile exclusion fence. Trouble is, the wildlife trust probably didn't want to pay for somebody to do this.
 
If it was me, I would have told the staff at the WT to wait until an appropriate itme of year when reptiles would not have been that active, or disturb hibernation sites,
 
Personally, I think the supervision factor should be made standard practice amongst wildlife trusts and other organisations alike - because this is what we do as consultants when putting in fence lines, or doing destructive searches etc.
 
If NT were allowed to do destroy/damage a GCN pond and sand lizards, then why hasn't NE done something about it? They should know that european protected species habitats are protected against destruction or disturbance.  It is probably down to resources, sadly, because there have been a lot of cut-backs in NE in recent years.
 
bye for now as it's late
 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 7:11am
Sadly NE have openly admitted a 'double standard' to me where on the one hand developers are expected to jump through hoops regarding protecting reptiles and 'conservation organisations' are given a free hand. 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that it will be almost impossible to stop these kind of works due to entrenched attitudes and lack of education regarding the needs of reptiles. We now have the new NE reptile man on the forum, perhaps he would like to comment on why NE sanction works of this nature which we all know are harmful to reptile populations?

Anyone who has followed adder ecology closely will know there is no correct time for totally clearing the habitat. These schemes are simply disastrous for reptile populations. During a development mitigation this level of destruction would not occur until after months of capture work to carefully relocate the animals. Yet the conservation organisation simply contract people to go onsite and destroy everything in their path with little or no thought of the implications for existing wildlife.


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 11:04am
I like the usual replies like we did the the work when we knew all the Adders and herps were hibernating in their bunkers 10 foot below the danger of being crushed , no mention how they will be able to emerge after the bulldozers have compacted the area,perhaps the have escape tunnels constructed by NE???hmmm.keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 12:22pm
My favourite is they are taking 'The Holistic Approach' - it must mean they destroy the entire system without the treatment or dissection into parts of which species they are actually harming. Dead

I think they must have a leaflet containing nonsense answers to give to irate herpers Keith!


Posted By: tim hamlett
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 6:39pm
"its the end of the financial year and we have a spare £25k. if we don't spend it we'll lose it. what can we do with it. hmm..."

just a thought
tim

ps forgot to say...sorry chris that really sucks!


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 7:39pm
Makes you wonder doesn't it Tim? Unfortunately there are numerous funding schemes available for this type of work including one that should now be winding up promoted by NE themselves using national lottery money.


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 8:26pm
Hi,
Just been to Allerthorpe for a quick look tonight.The good news is that the tiny area that a good few Adders frequent (which is well hidden from the public) is still there. The bulldozers missed it, they only cleared the area directly behind it, hopefully not affecting it. I'm still stinging from the common lizard area that has been erased though. I took pictures of each area while I was there for future reference. I counted 16+ areas most the size of 2 football pitches. They have now finished the work and I would appreciate any advice on what I could do there to benefit any wildlife left. I have started recording the reptiles there from the start of the year. Now that many areas are now accessible which weren't previously it may open up new opportunities.
I have just received a reply to my letter to NE. Briefly they state that they were trying to clear the shrub from the heath areas. Due to the comments (complaints ??) that they have received regarding methods used they visited the site ( a bit late !!) and reviewed them and decided that the way forward was to clear the areas left which was the majority of the areas ( they had finished by then anyway!!) using chainsaws and similar methods whic was less destructive. They acknowledge that the methods used may have been wrong and they will seek comments from people with an interest such as myself if future work is carried out (Cop Out!!)  
There is more to the letter than this but I don't know that copying it in full here would breech privacy or copyright laws. Let me know if this isn't the case and I will post. If anyone would like a copy then PM me and I will send you it with pictures if you want. Tommorrow, it should be in the local newpaper which will raise awareness + I rang the local news to see if they would pick up the story ! It doesn't end here people !!  Local MP will be receiving a letter soon ! 


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 8:42pm
Forgot to mention that the birch that they cleared with chainsaws have all been piled on top of the heather ! So much for clearing the area for the benefit of the heather !!!!!


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 9:24pm
It is unusual for NE to carryout a site a visit they must have received some serious flak - interesting they then decided when it was too late the method may have been wrong?? As you say it is then rather too late but lucky they changed tactics before the whole lot went as at many sites.

Regarding Copyright you could write back to NE and ask for permission to publish the letter in full here, I for one would like to see it, I'm sure others would too.


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 
Anyone who has followed adder ecology closely will know there is no correct time for totally clearing the habitat. These schemes are simply disastrous for reptile populations. .
 
Sorry, Gemma, what i meant was: there are better ways to manage the habitat if adders are known to be present. That is managing the habitat in a more sympathetic way by using different methods eg not going in with a bulldoze and doing vast amounts of habitat all at once. Sorry was a bit tired when wrote last night as late night again so didn't come across that well.
 
Bye for now. 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that it will be almost impossible to stop these kind of works due to entrenched attitudes and lack of education regarding the needs of reptiles.

 
And totally agreed with that too Gemma
 
That is really what it comes down to at the end of the day is awareness
 
But who will make the conservation organisations aware of the issues?
I would have said it would have been NE, or maybe the county ecologist.
 
But then we have the problem of the conservation organisation not listening to the county ecologist, or any consultant for that matter, so we are back to square one. Is my opinion that conservation organisations, inc local groups, do not want to listen to ecologists or consultants for that matter (and one local group totally dead against developments even when the impacts on wildlife have been reduced or the habitats will be enhanced).
 
 
 


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 8:35am
The only awareness NE have is their patronage to the rspb in maintaining vast stocks of stone curlews and reintroduction off condors on the heaths to control the raging hoards of muntjac deer. keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 10:37am

Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that it will be almost impossible to stop these kind of works due to entrenched attitudes and lack of education regarding the needs of reptiles.

 
And totally agreed with that too Gemma
 
That is really what it comes down to at the end of the day is awareness
 
But who will make the conservation organisations aware of the issues?
I would have said it would have been NE, or maybe the county ecologist.
 
But then we have the problem of the conservation organisation not listening to the county ecologist, or any consultant for that matter, so we are back to square one. Is my opinion that conservation organisations, inc local groups, do not want to listen to ecologists or consultants for that matter (and one local group totally dead against developments even when the impacts on wildlife have been reduced or the habitats will be enhanced).
 
 
 

Since I arrived in Essex 10 years ago or so I was almost immediately marked down as a trouble maker for opposing a project just like this one. They don't listen, they close ranks, if you put the arguments in document form these people become extremely hostile and will undermine you at every turn in future. I have a whole catalogue of nonsense arguments. Such as 'we actually see a lot more adders since we did the works'... well of course they do, they took away all the ground cover and the animals are totally exposed waiting to be picked off by predators...

I'm left with working with those people who are willing to listen and there are plenty of them at ground level. I get stuff done such as hand management, putting in log piles etc. As for stopping large scale destruction, too much money involved and too many jobsworths for one person to battle in my experience. Its certainly not an isolated thing though and plenty of people are aware of the sites where I ran into a lot of problems and the awful management that went on. It has really done EWT, NT and NE no good at all in the long run in the county.

PS I wasn't having a dig at you regarding the timing of works, I know you didn't mean to say there was a right time to destroy all the habitat Wink It was more in line with Keith's thoughts regarding these organisations saying it is OK to completely destroy a site when animals are hibernating, or the silly arguments like 'the animals will get out of the way'.. well they might, one or two of them, but they will be left with no suitable habitat to sustain them even if they did survive the onslaught of the bulldozers..



Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 12:39pm
Isn't all this the reason Tony Phelps, one of our great herpetologists, left the country? What he didn't know wasn't worth knowing and he had known a lot of his individual snakes for over 20 years. Like a lot of people on here he knew places where snakes lived very well indeed and it is this intimate knowledge that is ignored by the organisations.
Birds are able to fly off if the RSPB bgr up a site by their scorched earth techniques but sadly many of our heaths and other snake strongholds are surrounded by empty land or built up areas and so no recolonisation is possible. 

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Suz


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:


Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that it will be almost impossible to stop these kind of works due to entrenched attitudes and lack of education regarding the needs of reptiles.

 
And totally agreed with that too Gemma
 
That is really what it comes down to at the end of the day is awareness
 
But who will make the conservation organisations aware of the issues?
I would have said it would have been NE, or maybe the county ecologist.
 
But then we have the problem of the conservation organisation not listening to the county ecologist, or any consultant for that matter, so we are back to square one. Is my opinion that conservation organisations, inc local groups, do not want to listen to ecologists or consultants for that matter (and one local group totally dead against developments even when the impacts on wildlife have been reduced or the habitats will be enhanced).
 
 
 

 
PS I wasn't having a dig at you regarding the timing of works, I know you didn't mean to say there was a right time to destroy all the habitat Wink It was more in line with Keith's thoughts regarding these organisations saying it is OK to completely destroy a site when animals are hibernating, or the silly arguments like 'the animals will get out of the way'.. well they might, one or two of them, but they will be left with no suitable habitat to sustain them even if they did survive the onslaught of the bulldozers..

 
No probs Gemma. I know that you weren't trying to have a dig Smile  
 
Just very tired at the mo as 3 nights on the trot doing toad patrols Sleepy 
 
 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 12:02am
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:


Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that it will be almost impossible to stop these kind of works due to entrenched attitudes and lack of education regarding the needs of reptiles.

 
And totally agreed with that too Gemma
 
That is really what it comes down to at the end of the day is awareness
 
But who will make the conservation organisations aware of the issues?
I would have said it would have been NE, or maybe the county ecologist.
 
But then we have the problem of the conservation organisation not listening to the county ecologist, or any consultant for that matter, so we are back to square one. Is my opinion that conservation organisations, inc local groups, do not want to listen to ecologists or consultants for that matter (and one local group totally dead against developments even when the impacts on wildlife have been reduced or the habitats will be enhanced).
 
 
 

I'm left with working with those people who are willing to listen and there are plenty of them at ground level. I get stuff done such as hand management, putting in log piles etc. As for stopping large scale destruction, too much money involved and too many jobsworths for one person to battle in my experience. Its certainly not an isolated thing though and plenty of people are aware of the sites where I ran into a lot of problems and the awful management that went on. It has really done EWT, NT and NE no good at all in the long run in the county.

 
Agreed with that Gemma.
 
It's good to know that there are people out there who are willing to listen to us, and take on board everything that we say. And there's certainly people out there who are interested in wildlife, and that has to be good.
 
It's habitat loss though at the end of the day and the loss of large areas would result in a net loss of local reptile conservation status. Isn't that something that NE are stating that should be avoided? Can't understand then why they would let such a project to happen esp the one that Chris has highlighted. Something needs to change for sure. But I can't see it happening to be honest. Maybe we should all write in to our local MPs ?
 
As for reptiles "getitng out of the way" = have come across contractors who say this, and can be used as an excuse by developers for not doing a proper mitigation project or even a survey. Assuming that reptiles will get out of the way is just mad, to be honest - esp those which can't move far eg slow worm or lizards.
 
You can discourage reptiles from using an area by using certain methods (which I'm not going to discuss on an open forum as I don't want to encourage it) but these methods should only ever be used after doing a translocation of reptiles. 
 
Which brings me onto another question which I have just thought of -  why didn't they undertake some form of translocation of reptiles to another suitable area (within the same site if possible) and then clear the area where reptiles have been trapped from? I mean surely, somebody should have thought of this (eg NE or the adder expert etc?). Surely, this would have been the best solution all round for the reptiles??
 
how big is the area Chris that they have cleared in total - because they shouldn't really clear more than one third of an area in any one year, and picture looks like more than one third.
 
It's still the loss of habitat though - which of course would have been used by other wildlife, not just reptiles.
 
"Editing" so much tonight as my typing is so bad! Apologies!
Time for bed i think Smile
See you all over the weekend for more lengthy discussions


Posted By: Ophiuchus
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 1:00am
This is so sad and it makes me wonder what chance our herps have when some of the very organizations supposed to be to protect them are doing this to their habitat.

-------------
Ophiuchus *~*the serpent bearer*~*


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 1:28am
I suppose we shouldn't really worry as in a few years adders etc. will suddenly become endangered species and all sorts of money and methods will be thrown about to keep them - that is if there are enough left to get worried about. 

-------------
Suz


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 6:15am
Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

[QUOTE=GemmaJF]

 
Which brings me onto another question which I have just thought of -  why didn't they undertake some form of translocation of reptiles to another suitable area (within the same site if possible) and then clear the area where reptiles have been trapped from? I mean surely, somebody should have thought of this (eg NE or the adder expert etc?). Surely, this would have been the best solution all round for the reptiles??
 

Translocation? These idiots don't even do proper pre-works surveys!

This is why any statement like 'we see more adders since doing the work' is nonsense, they have no base line data and if they had it would show marked declines in reptiles.

I have been told by these organisations they can't afford to carryout pre-works surveys. (Well if they can't afford to survey in my opinion they can't afford to do the project). The problem with that argument locally is I have offered and carried out pre-works surveys totally free of charge and they have then completely ignored the results. I then have them say things like 'we don't have time to look for adders' as if it was some unnecessary and completely pointless exercise...

What I have come to realise is that this is all totally funding based - they get money to do the works and it is the only reason these insane clearances of land takes place. 

They are always full of rhetoric when challenged but the results on the ground speak for themselves. It is not conservation it is business. The fact that NE can on the one hand sanction these works and on the other expect developers to pay a fortune to carryout complex mitigation projects is simply beyond belief. The 'conservation organisations' though are not about to spend one penny of their funding on surveys or translocation or reptiles, that is for sure. The loss of habitat though is identical to a development site. There is generally no recovery of the habitat as the next step will be to bring in grazing animals to 'manage' the scrub and no chance of it returning to the early successional habitat required by reptiles.

It is like many things in life. At first one doesn't get it because it all seems insane and any rational person can see that something is wrong, then when one sees the real agenda it all slots into place....


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 6:45am
Well you sum that up right Gemma,have not got time to look for Adders"what a biased load of cretins who seem to spend their time bending over backwards to the rspb and its grand designs on what the public should expect to see.We had the rspb last year promoting in Sudbury yes you guessed it stone curlews and trying to get the public to donate,and guess what I said when asked/.Oh dont get me wrong I dont hate the rspb as in principal they do great work and I love birds and do some spotting , its just that they have tunnel vision admin staff who prioritise our feathered friends at the expense of other faunas habitat. keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 7:57am
News item in local paper:

http://bit.ly/wgoZ1S

Who manages the managers?

-------------
Lee Brady

Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant



mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2012 at 12:27pm
From the article

Quote by Simon Christian: 

“In the long term, areas will be improved for adders. The works in the long term will hopefully improve adders. 

What utter rubbish considering the next step is to introduce grazing cattle. The area was already ideal for adders, destroying it is never going to be good in the short, long or any term. I get so frustrated at this utter nonsense they spout. I've seen so many adder populations crash after these large scale clearance schemes it makes me weep.

Glad to see you got your say though Chris!


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2012 at 12:18pm
Keith tried to reply to PM but your inbox is full!


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2012 at 6:27pm
Hi GEMMA it should be empty now keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2012 at 6:35pm
PM sent


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2012 at 7:34pm
Opps, sorry just deleted post by accident!
 
Article on NE website on 2 march re farmer who was found guilty of destroying habitats in a SSSI. Can't recall what i said in original post, but along the lines of very similar to that of both cases that have been discussed here.
 
bye for now


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2012 at 3:11pm
Hi,
Paid a visit to Allerthorpe to day and spotted this. It was on one of the well known areas on a south facing slope of a dyke. There's always Adders there so it was no big suprise, but it was still nice to see it. Unfortunately, just behind it within a few feet there is nothing but bare earth. I hope that there is enough habitat close by for it to thrive.
While there I had time to reflect on the work carried out. If the work was done with a little more care and sensitivity and with the correct professional advice it could have been a different story, benefiting everything that lived there. Areas could have been left that really didn't need touching by having someone there who knew what they were doing directing the work as it was carried out. It was just a pity that they didn't think about it.
 
   


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2012 at 4:49pm
Lovely to see Chris Thumbs Up


Originally posted by Chris d Chris d wrote:


If the work was done with a little more care and sensitivity and with the correct professional advice it could have been a different story, benefiting everything that lived there. Areas could have been left that really didn't need touching by having someone there who knew what they were doing directing the work as it was carried out. It was just a pity that they didn't think about it.
 

 



That is so often the case, the works would have been fine if there had been pre-works surveys to determine key habitat areas. I think that is what is really frustrating, it isn't rocket science and so much could be done to prevent harm to reptiles during these schemes if they would actually listen to us. Sad fact is they don't really seem all that bothered. In fact generally I've found them very hostile to outside help. (Or interference as they seem to see it). It is the fact that the expertise is out there and yet these organisations neither seek or welcome advice that really makes the blood boil.


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2012 at 10:18pm
The way I see it, the only thing that will ever change attitudes will be a successful prosecution for killing protected species. That would probably require evidence in the shape of mangled bodies.

Perhaps the ARGs should club together and invest some cash into a prosecution fund to nail the next bunch of people who carry out this kind of work.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2012 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Lovely to see Chris Thumbs Up


Originally posted by Chris d Chris d wrote:


If the work was done with a little more care and sensitivity and with the correct professional advice it could have been a different story, benefiting everything that lived there. Areas could have been left that really didn't need touching by having someone there who knew what they were doing directing the work as it was carried out. It was just a pity that they didn't think about it.
 

 



That is so often the case, the works would have been fine if there had been pre-works surveys to determine key habitat areas. I think that is what is really frustrating, it isn't rocket science and so much could be done to prevent harm to reptiles during these schemes if they would actually listen to us. Sad fact is they don't really seem all that bothered. In fact generally I've found them very hostile to outside help. (Or interference as they seem to see it). It is the fact that the expertise is out there and yet these organisations neither seek or welcome advice that really makes the blood boil.
 
Yes lovely pic Chris
 
Goes to show that adders are def present there then.
 
Agreed with Gemma though and it really isn't rocket science at all. Pre-survey should have been done, and this is outlined in the Reptile Mitigation Guidelines - which are still in use but in draft form. These organisations should really take advantage of the expertise that is out there, but they don't seem to care. For example, rspb are into saving birds - but half of the staff aren't there for the birds or the wildlife (or care about the birds), they are there because it is a job for them.
 
the other thing that surprises me somewhat is that the NE man (who is also on here) hasn't responded yet on his thoughts on this. Given it's a hot topic at the moment, find it a bit hard to understand why it hasn't been picked up by them yet. I can't recall his name though so apologies if you have responded already NE!


Posted By: JamesM
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 3:51pm

What are these people trying to achieve?

 
 
I'll tell you what they're trying to achieve - they're trying their hardest to wipe out herp populations across the UK. There's no other explanation for it. Their only excuse is that it's cheaper. WTF?


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 8:10pm
Agreed Wolfgang, I also believe a prosecution is now the only solution, nothing else seems to get through to these people and the bad publicity of a wildlife conservation organisation being prosecuted under the WCA seems the only way to bring about a change. Makes we wonder how NE would fit into the picture. 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 9:21pm
Agreed with JamesM and with Wolfgang 100%.
 
I think somebody said to me (and may be on here, can't recall) that to make a prosecution such as this, you would need to have found dead reptiles - otherwise you can't prove it is unlawful.
 
Personally, i think that the fact that the conservation organisation has mechanically cleared the land at an inappropriate time of year on a site where reptiles are known to be present is enough for this. Also think it would be regarded as deliberate, intentional and reckless killing and injury of reptiles.
 
BUT having said that, your picture Chris of the adder in the last few days, I think is enough to justify that this work was unlawful and could have resulted in the killing and injury of reptiles - esp adders - which is a species which is in decline and extinct in some counties now sadly - partly because of these idiots.
 
Agreed with Gemma though esp if NE agreed to the works.  None of this seems to make any sense and at the end of the day, like JamesM said, it is down to the work being cheaper.
 
It's sad that wildlife, including herps, has to suffer for the sake of something being cheaper.....
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 9:44pm
I think a bag of dead animals would help with a prosecution - though I also agree totally that the implication is enough of unlawful killing considering the circumstances. I am sure it would be enough to bring a prosecution against a developer...

There are many issues.

One needs Police involvement, unfortunately wildlife liaison officers (if available) tend to take advice from wildlife trusts and NE, generally not prosecute them, so straight away you have to deal with someone who is on the other party's 'side'.

It would be a case for a magistrates court. Problem there could be that a magistrate may have little sympathy for adders and think it was unfair such a fuss was being made regarding poor little conservation workers getting into trouble killing a few snakes.. so that is going to be an issue to address before taking any steps towards a prosecution. Remember these people hide behind the name of 'conservationists', in fact many are jobsworths with very little interest in wildlife and just doing it because it is a 'job'. We really don't need to give them any sympathy at all.

I feel what one really needs is an organisation like FOE who have the resources to get a good solicitor to bring the case to court. There are a huge number of people who object to these schemes. We are as herpers the ones sitting with the means to stop it in the form of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) - which not only makes these works extremely unpleasant to witness, it with out a doubt makes them ILLEGAL.

I do though think despite the problems (I'm sure there are also others I've not considered) that a prosecution will work - hit them in the funding stream and they will start to take notice - it won't look very good on their next application for a grant if they have a prosecution for offences under the WCA...


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 11:21pm
Agreed with that Gemma, and if this had been a developer who had done this, then i reckon prosecutions would be underway already.
Even if no adders were killed or injured (assuming that they weren't as no dead animals found), there would still be impacts eg loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/prey availability etc. It's the indirect impacts that count as much as the direct ones to be honest. 
 
I think we should all club together, as herpers, and do something positive for these adders and other reptiles too for that matter. 
 
Maybe a campaign against these organisations would be helpful as I'm sure that their members wouldn't want to hear about this story.  If i was a member of the rspb and i heard about this, i would cancel my membership because I am so disgusted with (a) what they have done, and (b) the organisation doesn't seem to care about the impacts of what they have done. And they don't seem bothered at all that this was unlawful.
 
A county judge isn't going to be sympathetic to these adders, that's one thing that is certain for sure so would totally agree with you there Gemma.
 
bye for now
 
PS: good luck with this Chris and keep us posted on progress. 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 12:34am
Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

 
Even if no adders were killed or injured (assuming that they weren't as no dead animals found), there would still be impacts eg loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/prey availability etc. It's the indirect impacts that count as much as the direct ones to be honest. 
 
I think we should all club together, as herpers, and do something positive for these adders and other reptiles too for that matter. 
 
Maybe a campaign against these organisations would be helpful as I'm sure that their members wouldn't want to hear about this story.  If i was a member of the rspb and i heard about this, i would cancel my membership because I am so disgusted with (a) what they have done, and (b) the organisation doesn't seem to care about the impacts of what they have done. And they don't seem bothered at all that this was unlawful.

You are totally right it is the impacts such as loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/ prey that are the real issues in terms of the population crashes that happen after the schemes are put in place. The one most often overlooked is dispersal habitat around hibernation sites. Right now males are setting out to find surface dens, are far more mobile and less cryptic than usual and at a site where these type of works have been carried out are extremely vulnerable.

I've watched the affects of these schemes at several sites, though these are the real 'killer' in populations terms, it is though a case that the WCA protects the individual animal from unlawful killing, not its habitat, so I believe this is why finding dead animals may be necessary. 

I've been campaigning away on the ground for a long time, I have many friends at ground level who are pro-reptiles and I'm really surprised at times how tuned in many people are to this issue. It might not seem much to rant on about it on a forum all the time, but the message is starting to get through to many at ground level in Essex. A united front from all of us on RAUK at a national scale with the message that we are not afraid to seek a prosecution under the WCA might be in order? Any thoughts how to get this off the ground?


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 7:49am
How about getting rid of these individual titles like the Rspb and have it all combined into a Royal society for the protection of all native Uk wild animals the RSPWA. and then all species get the same protection,and not have some species getting preference above others .keith   

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: JamesM
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 9:19am
If Natural England are giving permission for this kind of work (which I believe they are?), then this makes them responsible.
 
I wonder what Mr. Foster has to say about this? I understand he's on here.....
 
 
If they haven't given permission for this, then this is even more serious. Somebody, somewhere, is going out of their way to remove the UK of it's wildlife. A line needs to be drawn somewhere.....


Posted By: Paul Edgar
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 6:15pm

Folks, I have been on the case, I was having some time off when this blew up and then needed to get to the bottom of what happened at Allerthorpe Common before I posted anything on here.  I actually had time off to attend a post mortem meeting about my baby son, who sadly died in December just after I started the Natural England herp specialist job (so many apologies for not being active on RAUK since).  Then the very first thing I’m faced with then I get back to work is yet another example of inappropriate management destroying reptile habitat.  So to say that I’m fuming about this too is a bit of an understatement.

I’ve spoken to one of the local staff members who has been involved and who, now he has visited the site, frankly admits that this was a disastrous mistake, pure and simple, and that he’s absolutely mortified.  Although the site in question isn’t an SSSI, it is in an HLS agreement that we’re responsible for overseeing.  The HLS agreement is with a private individual, albeit on FC land, and is primarily for heathland restoration.  As this particular area was only scrubbed up with 6-10 year old birch, and obviously would have still provided good habitat for reptiles, the Natural England brief for the works was not as detailed as it should have been.  As is plain to see from the photos heavy machinery was used, which was the completely wrong method for an area like this (clearly heavy machinery should only be used where there is no reptile habitat whatsoever remaining), and at the worst possible time of year to boot.  As soon as Natural England staff became aware of what was happening the work was stopped and less damaging methods were advised (I’m told that our local staff are currently following up whether this advice was followed).

Unfortunately this came too late for a key part of the site.  A large percentage of the core reptile habitat has apparently been destroyed, and adders are definitely known to have been killed, so there’s little doubt that damage has been done to the conservation status of reptiles on Allerthorpe Common.  There’s no point blaming the agreement holder, the contractor or anyone giving prior advice about the reptile interest – it was Natural England’s responsibility to oversee the work.  I should add though that I was very impressed by the candour and honesty of the staff member involved who I spoke to in holding his hands up to this one – the one good thing in the whole situation.  The other thing to bear in mind is that management funded by Environmental Stewardship is absolutely vital for the long-term survival of key reptile habitats like heathland.  We can’t afford to see this type of work curtailed, but we definitely still need to see a significant improvement in how it’s implemented on reptile habitats.

As to what I’m going to do about this case and others like it (after all, this is only the latest in a long line of similar incidents); well, several things were already underway and more things will now happen as a result, including:

·         I'll be meeting senior Natural England management to review the implications of this specific case, what we’re going to do to address the situation and how we can make sure nothing like it happens again.  I’d particularly like to see information being put out, from the “top down” as it were, to all our advisers across the whole country to make them fully aware of issues like this and how to avoid any more repeats.

·         As well as producing internal guidance as a result of the above, I’ll also be promoting the external reptile habitat management training organised by ARC to our own staff - and of course to other organisations as well.  Have a look at the ARC website: my predecessor Jim Foster is back in the country after his travels in SE Asia and will be running various training course for them.  Get booking!

·         As I mentioned at the Herp Worker’s Meeting to those of you there, I commissioned an adder report from ARC recently – some of you may well have been involved in providing information to Chris Gleed-Owen and Steve Langham who are putting it all together.  The first draft is actually due later this week, so no doubt the Allerthorpe case will just make into the section that catalogues such incidents!  This report, which will eventually be available on the ARC website, will assess the current status of the adder in England and provide recommendations for future monitoring and conservation actions (including how to reduce the frequency of incidents like this).

·         Another report due soon, and that Lee Brady and Mike Phillips are leading on, will start the long-overdue process of producing a reptile habitat suitability index.  It’s early days yet, but a robust and workable reptile HSI (plus reptile habitat sensitivity maps for SSSIs, HLS agreements, etc) will not only help with assessing reptile status and all sorts of other useful things but, again, will help us avoid situations like this in future.

·         Yet another report I’m waiting for will highlight the “Important Herpetofauna Areas of England”, examining the value of different regions, National Character Areas, local authorities, HLS target areas and so on to all our herp species.  This is needed for targeting conservation spending effectively but it’ll also flag up areas where extra care should be taken with HLS agreements or the management of SSSIs.

·         I’ve already put in a bid for extra money from our 2012-13 species recovery budget to include additional conservation actions for the adder (and the common toad).

·         I’ve also requested funding for 2012-13 to directly support ARG UK in England.  It’s quite obvious that a lot of future work for herps will be absolutely dependant on ARG UK, individual ARGs and the random assortment of other volunteers and web bloggers who all have a shared interest in herp conservation.  Some of the specific projects that ARG UK will be hopefully helping to co-ordinate will include the herp input into the upcoming SSSI review (adders and other herps are seriously under-represented as notified features on protected areas), developing the reptile HSI/reptile habitat sensitivity maps and also helping with research to look at the value of agri-environment scheme buffer strips to herps (which I’ve also just got some funding for).

·         The above ARG UK support will include funding for regional conferences and the annual Herp Workers’ Meeting as regular opportunities for the herp conservation community to get together and chew over stuff like habitat management are vital.  Plus it would be good to meet more of you in person.

·         I’ve spoken to Chris Monk and I’ll also be becoming a formal adviser to ARG UK so, among other things, we can produce a strong and coordinated response to any issues like this in future.

There are a few other things in the pipeline and one project I’ve started developing with ARC is to document (probably on a web site) example sites and case studies of where generic habitat management is actually being done well for reptiles.  For example, it’s clear that adders and other reptiles have been eradicated on numerous chalk grassland sites by over-grazing for conservation.  However, one of the very best examples of a grazed chalk grassland site where adder populations are also still healthy and thriving is Martin Down National Nature Reserve, which is managed by Natural England.  So as well as admitting it when we get things wrong, we’ll also be highlighting cases where we get it right too!  Do put forward any good examples of reptile management that you know about as well.

I’ll keep RAUK informed about progress on this particular case and other things of interest going on.  I used to know of several good adder populations on the South Downs, most of which are now gone because of conservation management (my own degree thesis on adder movements up there was ruined by about 200 sheep one spring!).  My little boy is now buried at a Natural Burial Site that supports one of the last of these adder populations so, apart from this being an integral part of my job, I also have a very strong personal interest in this issue.

Paul Edgar

Senior Environmental Specialist (Amphibians & Reptiles), Natural England

 



-------------
Senior Environmental Specialist (Amphibians & Reptiles), Natural England


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 7:41pm
Hi,
 
The NE had full knowledge before the work was started and during (I doubt that they had any real interest though) James. I don't know if there is someone out there going out of there way to remove the UK's wildlife. My opinion is that they just don't care (or uneducated in the matter) or money takes priority before the interests or lives of lesser animals. I would love to see someone taken to account over Allerthorpe and the other sites that have been desecrated. Isn't there anything that can be done to bring the people to justice ?? What will it take to make them think twice in future ?
 
I contacted my local MP stating my concerns and asking if he would look into why Allerthorpe was so mis-managed and with a view to take it further to the Environment Minister. He has replied with a letter that he will be getting back to me once he has more news. I'm hoping that he will take it serious enough to do something about it. 


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:



I think a bag of dead animals would help with a prosecution - though I also agree totally that the implication is enough of unlawful killing considering the circumstances. I am sure it would be enough to bring a prosecution against a developer...

....
One needs Police involvement, unfortunately wildlife liaison officers (if available) tend to take advice from wildlife trusts and NE, generally not prosecute them, so straight away you have to deal with someone who is on the other party's 'side'.

It would be a case for a magistrates court. Problem there could be that a magistrate may have little sympathy for adders and think it was unfair such a fuss was being made regarding poor little conservation workers getting into trouble killing a few snakes.. so that is going to be an issue to address before taking any steps towards a prosecution. Remember these people hide behind the name of 'conservationists', in fact many are jobsworths with very little interest in wildlife and just doing it because it is a 'job'. We really don't need to give them any sympathy at all.

I feel what one really needs is an organisation like FOE who have the resources to get a good solicitor to bring the case to court. There are a huge number of people who object to these schemes. We are as herpers the ones sitting with the means to stop it in the form of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) - which not only makes these works extremely unpleasant to witness, it with out a doubt makes them ILLEGAL.

I do though think despite the problems (I'm sure there are also others I've not considered) that a prosecution will work - hit them in the funding stream and they will start to take notice - it won't look very good on their next application for a grant if they have a prosecution for offences under the WCA...





Does anybody know the ins and outs of bringing a private prosecution? Presumably it would cost £££, hence my comment about an ARG fighting fund, but if all the people interested in native herps club together and chip in, then we might get enough to do something useful. Personally, I would certainly be more than happy to dig deep for such a prosecution! Even if it does not go very far through the system, a substantial level of publicity might yield enough egg on certain faces to make others sit up and pay attention to avoid similar issues in future.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

 
Even if no adders were killed or injured (assuming that they weren't as no dead animals found), there would still be impacts eg loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/prey availability etc. It's the indirect impacts that count as much as the direct ones to be honest. 
 
I think we should all club together, as herpers, and do something positive for these adders and other reptiles too for that matter. 
 
Maybe a campaign against these organisations would be helpful as I'm sure that their members wouldn't want to hear about this story.  If i was a member of the rspb and i heard about this, i would cancel my membership because I am so disgusted with (a) what they have done, and (b) the organisation doesn't seem to care about the impacts of what they have done. And they don't seem bothered at all that this was unlawful.

A united front from all of us on RAUK at a national scale with the message that we are not afraid to seek a prosecution under the WCA might be in order? Any thoughts how to get this off the ground?
 
I'll have a think about that one overnight Gemma, as i am sure there is a way of doing this.
 
 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2012 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:

 
Even if no adders were killed or injured (assuming that they weren't as no dead animals found), there would still be impacts eg loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/prey availability etc. It's the indirect impacts that count as much as the direct ones to be honest. 
 
I think we should all club together, as herpers, and do something positive for these adders and other reptiles too for that matter. 
 
Maybe a campaign against these organisations would be helpful as I'm sure that their members wouldn't want to hear about this story.  If i was a member of the rspb and i heard about this, i would cancel my membership because I am so disgusted with (a) what they have done, and (b) the organisation doesn't seem to care about the impacts of what they have done. And they don't seem bothered at all that this was unlawful.

You are totally right it is the impacts such as loss of foraging areas, loss of habitat, loss of food/ prey that are the real issues in terms of the population crashes that happen after the schemes are put in place. The one most often overlooked is dispersal habitat around hibernation sites.
 
thanks Gemma!
 
Agreed though and can't understand why they undertook the work at this time of year and when it would be critical for emerging reptiles. in the reptile management handbook (which was written by Mr Foster) there is a paragraph in there (under cutting i think) that vegetation shouldn't be cleared around hibernation sites. So whoever gave the go-ahead for this work can't turn around and say that they didn't know about this factor.
 
I don't know why NE approved it, but they shouldn't have done and I think a response from NE is required for sure.
 
i'll respond more on Weds as i am so shattered at the moment. So apologies if the above doesn't make any sense or isn't proper English. Bye for now.... 


Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 3:59pm

Please see the detailed comments from Paul Edgar of Natural England on the previous page. ( http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/allerthorpe_topic4090_page6.html - http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/allerthorpe_topic4090_page6.html )  

This was unfortunately overlooked and the post not authorised for 24 hours. Entirely my fault - for which I apologise. This will not happen again with Paul's posts as I have upgraded his status to a more appropriate level - "Forum Specialist"

All the best

Chris



-------------
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)


Posted By: Paul Edgar
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 5:44pm
Many thanks Chris and no problems.  Just thought I'd test that though!
 
I also wanted to reinterate to everyone that there won't be any kind of whitewash for this one.  The local Natural England staff involved in overseeing this HLS agreement have admitted that a serious mistake was made in ensuring the right people had the right guidance - this certainly wasn't the outcome they intended.  And, as Natural England's national herp specialist, I'll be following this up internally and will also be working hard to ensure the message gets sent out far and wide that this sort of damage to reptile habitats, accidental or otherwise, just isn't acceptable.
 
Will keep you posted.
 
Paul


-------------
Senior Environmental Specialist (Amphibians & Reptiles), Natural England


Posted By: tim hamlett
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 5:48pm
so sorry about your son paul. thank you for the detailed response.

tim


Posted By: JamesM
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 6:42pm
Thanks for the post, Paul.
 
And I am very sorry to hear about your son!
 
All the best,
 
James.


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by Paul Edgar Paul Edgar wrote:

Many thanks Chris and no problems.  Just thought I'd test that though!
 
I also wanted to reinterate to everyone that there won't be any kind of whitewash for this one.  The local Natural England staff involved in overseeing this HLS agreement have admitted that a serious mistake was made in ensuring the right people had the right guidance - this certainly wasn't the outcome they intended.  And, as Natural England's national herp specialist, I'll be following this up internally and will also be working hard to ensure the message gets sent out far and wide that this sort of damage to reptile habitats, accidental or otherwise, just isn't acceptable.
 
Will keep you posted.
 
Paul
 
Thanks Paul for your response.
 
Really sorry to hear about your son. Our thoughts are with you and your family.
 
Regards
Reptile Ecologist and the rest of the SE team
 


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 8:48pm
Paul,
 
First, I am very sorry for your loss and my deepest sympathy to you and your family.
 
Thank you for the wonderful response. I for one feel like that it is the second best thing to actual prosecution and my mind has been put at ease. I am so pleased with the things that you posted and feel that this matter may finally be recieving the correct attention. I believe that the damage has already been done so lets not focus on prosecution but use the energy on educating and bringing awareness how these precious areas should be properly managed in the future so that this may never happen again.
 
There are a few points that I would like to raise if I may.
 
When it is stated that work was halted after concerns were raised regarding the destruction, I have reservations regarding this as I have looked around the common and can see no evidence anywhere where places have been spared. I think that this is statement is a bit of a fob off to calm peoples emotions.
 
There is evidence where young trees have been cleared by hand at the edges of the common beside the some of the paths. Unfortunately, they have been piled high on the top of heather, restricting any growth and making it unfit for reptile habitation !! I repeat on what was said earlier where work hasn't been correctly supervised or checked. It would be a wise choice for the contractors to return and rectify this. I am willing to volunteer to help with this if needed.
 
How will the cleared land return to heathland ? I just can't see it viable to do this, there are many acres of cleared land and I can't see that it is possible to plant heather by hand and manage it. How will the areas be managed in the future ? I can only see the cleared areas becoming grass and trees, eventually becoming woodland.
 
Finally, please, please, don't release cattle onto the area, I for one will try to chase them away. One of the areas at the top of the common where cattle was released last year was badly damaged by them. It was a good Common lizard habitat, but they trampled areas and cleared heather where they rested. It doesn't matter now anyway as the area has been mostly cleared . But by releasing cattle in the areas cleared can't help the reptiles if they try to recolonize.  
 
Thank-you again for your professional support.
 
 
Chris
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 9:32pm
Paul, 

I have not got the words to describe how sad I feel regarding the loss of your son, my deepest sympathy for you and your family.

I must re-read before commenting on the content of your post, though I feel, perhaps finally, I will start to sleep a little easier at night after years of frustration regarding these schemes. I finally feel we might have the right man in the job at NE to change a few attitudes. I have to go collapse now, you know how it is at this time of year, I'm running on about 2 hours sleep a night.




Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 9:47pm
Paul,

My deepest sympathy for your loss, for you and your family, and my profound admiration for coming here to explain the facts despite all that is going on around you.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2012 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Paul, 

I have not got the words to describe how sad I feel regarding the loss of your son, my deepest sympathy for you and your family.

I must re-read before commenting on the content of your post, though I feel, perhaps finally, I will start to sleep a little easier at night after years of frustration regarding these schemes. I finally feel we might have the right man in the job at NE to change a few attitudes. I have to go collapse now, you know how it is at this time of year, I'm running on about 2 hours sleep a night.


Well said Gemma and totally agreed 100%
 
I will also re-read your post Paul. I take back any comments i said about NE in previous posts, esp on why NE hadn't yet responded.
 
Like Gemma and Chris have said, I will sleep a lot better now as we know that these issues are being dealt with so that it can't ever happen again.
 
Thanks for being on here though Paul - it is nice to know that there is somebody from NE  on here who will listen to us, and discuss things with us too.  And also nice to know that there is somebody on here who we can turn to if there are problems.
 
Keep smiling Smile
 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2012 at 6:43am
Overall I guess my only remaining question is how can something like this be a mistake?

Considering the costs involved and the organisation required to get a contractor onsite with heavy plant machinery, it is not something that happens by accident. It is also surely not something where one would not expect the results to be disastrous, we have plenty of other examples from the past.

We have a situation where surely someone is to blame? Surely somebody should be prosecuted in this case under the WCA as there appears from what has been said there were definitely offences committed, the death of adder at this site simply cannot be viewed as 'accidental' when it was actually inevitable.

We have a situation where on the one hand NE have pursued prosecution of a private individual for removing pond weed at an inappropriate time of year at a GCN pond, on the other the wholesale destruction of yet another important reptile site. How can one be worthy of prosecution and the other simply a 'mistake'.

I support Paul fully and strongly feel that often the only way to change things is from the 'inside' of an organisation. 

On the other hand I still feel strongly that a prosecution for offences under the WCA will achieve a great deal in the short-term. I think we all feel it is time to end what has been officially sanctioned slaughter of protected species at many extremely important and significant sites. It was bad enough when it was a picture of being funding driven, it seems in this case (and not for the first time) it also included total incompetence.

I cannot help feeling that in this case the public have spoken up and there is now a lot of back pedalling going on. The fact is exactly this sort of scheme of removing huge swathes of currently suitable reptile habitat from heathland has being going on for years. Should we be convinced that in this case it really was not the objective? I find it hard to believe to be honest as it has all the hallmarks of dozens if not hundreds of these 'heathland management' schemes. Tear it up and then introduce grazing animals without the slightest concern for existing wildlife. Was that not the intention at Allerthorpe all along?


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2012 at 8:47am
I would like to throw in a a moan about the Golf course on Hankley common that is taking huge swathes of heathland every year decimating that was once a place of tranquility inhabited by all our herps and they go on doing this with impunity destroying la ca adders and common lizards nats all being pushed out so some cretin can flick a ball about, so much for the protected species act.keith

-------------
   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Kevin Morgan
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2012 at 3:36pm
A shake up of NE may well be a good thing is a good thing. There are lots of good people working for NE and with some great skills and herp experience - and god luck for Paul to try and change things. As we all know, some of the practices in management of wildife areas' like Allerthorpe, are a long way from best practice and NE's own guidelines and when it would have been a very serious matter if it hand been such an incident on a mitgation site. At the other extreme, in regard to mitigation, after over 23 years doing herp surveys I am dismayed in the way Great Crested Newt guidelines have become dogma and a risk adverse approach to mitigation with the EPS systen that is really scaring a lot of considerate developers (and herpetologists!).

I think it is the most serious issue facing herp conservation today when we should all be striving to best practice and the way ahead  - get everyone to encourage reptiles and amphibians on a site with the right long term management, whether it is a wildlife site or part of mitigation in regard to development.

-------------
Kevin Morgan wildlifesirveys.co.uk


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2012 at 8:29pm
 
We have visited one of our development sites today where we are due to start on some mitigation work. Some considerable damage has been carried out on the site sadly...
 
Edited by Reptile Ecologist
 

 

 


 
 
 


Posted By: JamesM
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 12:47am
Paul,


One question I must ask....If this was a mistake, then why haven't previous "mistakes" been learned from?

For instance....Ash Ranges in Surrey also had similar treatment a couple of years ago, and so has Cannock Chase recently, so I hear from the grapevine.....Many other sites have also had this similar treatment.

Is this the result of the attitude from previous and current staff members from NE of this "method" being cheaper?

I for one, will go absolutely mental if I arrive at one of my local sites to see this kind of thing has happened. I am sure other field herpers and ecologists will as well.


Best regards,

James.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 5:40am
Sussexecology - you have a case there for a prosecution, but can it be made to stick? Not the first time that a developer has used ecological data submitted for the purpose of mitigation to target site clearances. 

I used to be outraged by such actions - funny though it should appear on this thread. Frankly what is the difference between what your developer has done and what this thread is about? One needs to brief the client that if they do these pre-mitigation clearances they are throwing away their bargaining chip... I certainly bring this up with all my clients and make it quite clear they are not going to get away with such actions.


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 4:37pm
deleted
 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 6:30pm

Hi SE
It is actually very simple to start a new thread (known as "Topic" here) . Simply use the menu to go to the "Live Forums". Once there, all the Forums are listed in groups. Select and click on the forum you want (for example, in this case,  Conservation group, Habitat Loss forum) and you will see an option "New Topic" immediately below the Forum title at top left. Click on that, enter the details and off you go.

You will also see a short-cut at the bottom of the page to jump straight to any other Forums and once you have doen so, the New Post option.

All the best

Chris




-------------
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 7:03pm
deleted
sorry folks
 
 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 7:50pm
NE do not tend to make site visits, it is rare in any circumstances.

In a case like this I would get someone local (usually one can find someone who isn't all that keen on the development on their doorstep) to keep an eye for you. Any sign of plant machinery being moved in, either get there yourself and stop it or call the police. It is the only way and I have had clients large and small who will pull dirty tricks. Tend to be the smaller housing developers though who think they will get away with it. Sad fact is that even if you did go as far as calling the police on your own client, they would still probably get away with. LB will I'm sure tell you about Iwade where a very similar event happened. It is quite a story, especially the fact that no prosecution was forthcoming considering the caliber of expert witnesses involved, despite the case getting as far as magistrate court.

PS don't feel guilty about it in any way. If the client won't follow the advice you provide it is not your fault. In time one learns to preempt most of these events. I had a client meeting recently where I simply stated "I know you intend to clear the site, however the planning department flagged the ecological value themselves - you do that and good bye planning permission". One has to risk losing the odd client because they go elsewhere, but if they are going to be like that, you are better rid of them in my opinion. I actually win over most clients in this way, seeing it from their point of view strangely is a very good way to get them onside. 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 8:52pm
deleted
sorry folks


Posted By: MancD
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 8:56pm
If there has been a breach of planning conditions, then you should inform the Local Authority who will send an enforcement officer out to investigate. LPAs are the enforcement body for planning condition breaches.
 
If it's a Natural England licensing breach, which would be unlikely given you are dealing with the "widespread" reptile species, then you should report this to NE and a compliance visit is carried out. I've done several compliance visits to European Protected Species licence cases this month and on top of the complaints we respond to there is also an element of "random sampling" of cases to visit or call up.
 
Anything outside of NE Licences/permits, or LPA Planning conditions would be for the Police to enforce. Most forces have a Wildlife Crime Office you can report any offences to.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by sussexecology sussexecology wrote:


 
it's the clients who say they will do what you say and take your advice on board, then do the opposite who are the hardest to predict. I really didn't see this coming because the client has been so good to us eg letting us have access at any time and just generally being very nice (offering us cups of tea).
 

Actually I find they are the easiest to predict, they will certainly pull the carpet. 

It is the client who argued every point, rang round and found out what other developers got away with in the past and tries it on with you and generally makes life difficult for you, phones you up in the middle of the night and says 'hey why can't we just clear all the vegetation with Agent Orange' etc etc.. who will eventually play ball and let you do the work to the letter of what was proposed. It is the apparently pleasant ones who somehow keep a distance from what you are actually doing that spring the surprises.

One has to remember that absolutely no developer actually wants to pay money to mitigate for herps. The only way to get them to do it your way is to be extremely persuasive and that usually involves lectures to them on the cost implications of having their heavy plant machinery seized, potential planning delays etc, etc. So if they are not asking how they can cut corners and costs and you are not nursing them through every step, be very very wary of them!


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 11:01pm
deleted
sorry folks


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2012 at 11:35pm
deleted


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 9:58am
Read a few books written for developers - the whole game is to make money. Any mitigation in their mind is simply an erosion of their profit margin. 

You have to have them working with you and the only way to achieve that is to have them believe you will save them money/time/bad PR. It is only when they are onside that one can do the best for the animals. 

Sad thing is it is part of that game to go with the lowest quote they get from any contractor, hence why the good consultants get undercut and one mitigation after another becomes a complete fiasco. 

Of course they believe if they remove the habitat there will be no need for a mitigation, these people are not slow - if they were they would not be in the development game for very long. I would not be at all surprised if some have read these forums and follow the examples of some wildlife conservation organisations. I have had more than one client ask if they could just put grazing animals on the site for a few months to rid it of reptiles - one doesn't have to look far to see where that idea came from!

PS the answer is NO YOU &*%%~ CANNOT - net conservation status, NE, etc take note!


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:


PS the answer is NO YOU &*%%~ CANNOT - net conservation status, NE, etc take note!
 
Sorry, Gemma, you lost me on that one!
Feeling utterly exhausted at the moment so won't stay for long.
 
Any news on Allerthorpe ??
 
Regards
SE Reptile Ecologist
 


Posted By: JamesM
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 4:15am
Originally posted by AGILIS AGILIS wrote:

I would like to throw in a a moan about the Golf course on Hankley common that is taking huge swathes of heathland every year decimating that was once a place of tranquility inhabited by all our herps and they go on doing this with impunity destroying la ca adders and common lizards nats all being pushed out so some cretin can flick a ball about, so much for the protected species act.keith

Hey, I'm one of those 'cretins' that "flicks a ball about" on a golf course....LOL Or I at least used to.

but I do agree.....Pushing a protected species out of it's own home, when really, they were here long before us, is out of line.....but the ignorance of humans continues.

If it was a load of fluffy badgers, then it would probably be different, but because it's reptiles, nobody seems to give a $%^&.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 10:00am
I've always been a believer in the idea that if wildlife conservation is to be sustainable it has to include the most common form ... us!

It is a shame that something with the wildlife potential of golf course could not have been taken as opportunity to improve the area and yet at the same time include people.

Might sound strange but I am a big fan of new roads for example. We use the roads, the wildlife use the verges, often in areas where there was nothing for them before but arable fields.

I think we have a situation where as conservationists we are continually fire fighting, really what is needed is a change in attitude across the board that ensures that areas are not just mitigated but that all new schemes include provision for wildlife. It is not that the concept is new, but if developers moved away from mitigations they simply do not want to do and instead spent the money creating new habitats it would go a long way to solve the problems. It was back in 1996 that Opportunities for Amphibians and Reptiles in the Designed Landscape was published. It is all there. I for one would be much happier to be paid to simply create reptile habitat which is enjoyable, instead of overseeing the capture and movement of animals from sites. 

For example if the money that is currently spent to survey for, capture and move animals was spent instead on a 'wildlife tax' that ensured that new habitat was created in the area the whole situation would be better all round.

Fundamentally what is required is a change in the law. Currently for the widespread species of reptile it is the animal that is protected. What of course should be required is that the habitat is compensated for. In the bigger picture the death of one animal is insignificant compared to the loss of habitat. Though this seems now to be policy it is not actually law.

We live in an increasingly overcrowded society with greater demands on land use than ever before. Until we learn to incorporate wildlife into new schemes without the money from developers being used to jump hoops, then we are left in a situation where we will continually fight fires.

Still getting back to the subject of this thread, if the wildlife conservation organisations cannot set a good example, why should anyone expect developers to do so....


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

 
Still getting back to the subject of this thread, if the wildlife conservation organisations cannot set a good example, why should anyone expect developers to do so....
 
couldn't agree more.
 
This is a question i get asked all the time by clients and organisations such as the rspb and the wildlife trusts really should set a good example. Otherwise, it is flawed.
 
 


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 9:56pm
Sorry I haven't posted , I'm getting a little lost keeping up with all the technical discussions here ! (But still fascinating !). There isn't really anything to report with Allerthorpe at the moment(sussexecology).. The local MP hasn't got back to me and may need a prompt soon. I was there on Sunday speaking to a guy who was taking photos of Adders. He was telling me that he had been told by a National Trust guy that  the areas were cleared to enable the seed bank from the heather to recolonise them. I can't see it happening ! It just shows how misguided the people who should be looking after these areas and should know what they are doing really are. It will be interesting to see what will start growing in the near future, I really do hope that I'm wrong and heather starts to regrow. I'll be taking pics as it does for interest and will keep you posted with the progress. I'm still waiting to see any Adders on the islands in the cleared areas. Plenty of Adders out in the few places like the reserve which was untouched. I( but where cattle will be released soon !!!!) The sad thing is that the guy was telling me about the slow worms that were at Allerthorpe too. I've only ever seen a few young. They would have been in the cleared areas as it was perfect habitat for them + I'd seen  a good few Great Crested Newts under the logs in the same areas. At least the GCN's will be breeding in the ponds away from any danger at this time of year won't they ?? 
 
Chris


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 10:34pm
Thanks for your reply Chris
 
Very sad to hear about the slow worms being present, as they would have certainly been killed or injured as they spend their time below ground, or just on the surface. If GCN had been present, and they knew it, then this is unlawful.
 
Wish there was some good news in relation to Allerthrope. Really hope it does end up with a good outcome like they find a high density of reptiles on the site this year,. or better still, they change their management. That would be good. Smile
 
  
Regards
HW, Reptile Ecologist
 


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2012 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Iowarth Iowarth wrote:

Hi SE
It is actually very simple to start a new thread (known as "Topic" here) . Simply use the menu to go to the "Live Forums". Once there, all the Forums are listed in groups. Select and click on the forum you want (for example, in this case,  Conservation group, Habitat Loss forum) and you will see an option "New Topic" immediately below the Forum title at top left. Click on that, enter the details and off you go.

You will also see a short-cut at the bottom of the page to jump straight to any other Forums and once you have doen so, the New Post option.

All the best

Chris




Chris - have tried to PM you this evening but iit's bouncing back to me. Could you PM me please? Thanks v much. Just need to talk to you about this naughty client
Reptile Ecologist


Posted By: Jonathan Proud
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2012 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Chris d Chris d wrote:

The volunteers from the wildlife trust had tried to keep on top of the young trees and at one time I was going to offer my services until I saw how mis-managed and badly led they were. They had built log piles but then as stated earlier, destroyed habitats, strimmed without due care and in addition driven down the paths compacting them making the area liabel to flood in future.


I've been a member of the volunteer group for thirteen years and became group coordinator a year ago. This is the first feedback I've had. Thank you.



Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 1:53pm
Hi Jonathan,
 
Sorry if it sounds that I am being insultive to you and the work that you do, but the local wildlife is something that I'm quite passionate about as you can see. They seem to need all the help that they can get considering what has happened recently. I wondered when someone would comment from the National Trust regarding my comments. It has taken a while to draw you out. I'm not back tracking or retracting anything that I have said but the work I mentioned was carried a couple of years ago.The last time I spoke to the volunteers, enquiring about helping out they had no-one leading them. Maybe with you taking over Jonathan, things may change for the better. 
 
I wonder if you could clear one thing up for me, I can't understand why the heather is cleared beside the pathways each year by a heavy duty grass-cutter to the detriment of the reptiles and insects. Ther used to be plenty of lizards and Adders there but not now that the cover has been removed.
 
Being someone who works closely at Allerthorpe what are your comments on the work that was done this spring ? The work that you carry out is somewhat more sensitive to the clearance carried out, are you shocked about it as everyone else ? Were you approached beforehand for your input ? I would think with the time that you spend in the forest that you could have given some good advice. I would be great to have your comments and thoughts on the matter.  
 
Incidently, there has been a good few Adders out there in the last few days. I've posted some pics and some new updated information on what I have recently found out regarding Allerthorpe on the Adders part of the forum.   
 
I'm not someone who hides behind my comments, I will keep an eye out for you while in the forest and say hello. It will be good to have a chat.
 
chris 


Posted By: Jonathan Proud
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 6:01pm
First of all, you reptiles don't do yourselves any favours by blaming the wrong people and insulting those who are on your side. If you want to make any difference, you need to work with others, not against them.

The nature reserve is leased to Yorkshire Wildlife Trust by the Forestry Commission. YWT have no say in the management of the remainder of Allerthorpe Common. The National Trust have no involvement whatever, as far as I know.

The areas that have recently been rotovated were clear felled by Forestry Commission contractors about six years ago, with the intention that they would be restored to lowland heath. The YWT volunteer group helped with clearance of the brush over parts of that area. Within the last two years, grazing rights on the common have been let to a local farmer under a HLS agreement and YWT volunteers have had no involvement with land management outside the reserve.

The pathways outside the reserve are mown each year by Forestry Commission contractors (I assume), to keep the paths clear for the benefit of dog-walkers.

I'm a volunteer with YWT, not their employee. These are my personal views and not those of Yorkshire Wildlife Trust: I was as surprised as everyone else at the recent destruction of the heathland and totally horrified. I had hoped that the YWT volunteer group would be permitted to clear the birch regrowth on the areas adjacent to the reserve, to create a 'joined up' habitat for reptiles and other wildlife, but it was not to be. This destruction is an environmental disaster for Allerthorpe Common and I'm appalled that Natural England, of all people, should have allowed it to happen. There's clearly something seriously wrong with the organisation's management - it can't be blamed on just one person. The land will recover, but its going to take another six years. I wonder if birch regrowth will be controlled this time or will it just be left as before. I hope NE will work with the Wildlife Trust to manage the land appropriately.

Chris, I'm very pleased to hear that you are still seeing adders outside the reserve. On our last work day on April 1st, we saw five, including two males 'dancing', within the reserve - and that was without actively searching for them.

I've seen the area you refer to that was not rotovated, but has had the birch cut and left where it fell. I was thinking that on our next workday the volunteer group could collect all that up into piles (if we're permitted to do so). What do you think? Is it better to clear it now or leave the land undisturbed until the autumn?




Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2012 at 2:03am
The land might recover but the wild life will suffer at the incompetence of managements decisions on heavy handed tidy ups.

-------------
   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2012 at 2:29pm
Hi Jonathan,
 
Thanks for clearing things up with regards to who does what work in the forest and giving you views. I can only comment on the work that I have seen carried out in the last few years. Sometimes it worries me as I can't see the benefits to ALL the animals. (not just reptiles). It's like putting up a birdbox for the birds to use but knocking a nail into the tree, therefore damaging it. What worries me is what you said about the sides of the paths been cleared for the walkers by the Forestry Commission. I have always been under the impression that the forest is for the wildlife that have always lived there and that we are only visitors to their home, the FC seem to have the wrong attitude, shouldn't they be putting the best interests of the inhabitants first rather than the dog walkers ?  Besides, the paths are wide enough without widening them anymore at the detriment (or worse not even considering) the impact of the wildlife.
 
You mentioned that clearance work was previously carried out in the areas that have recently been cleared. I wasn't aware of this have never seen any evidence of it. I've been in the area for about six years now.  However, alot of the areas recently cleared was mature heather which seemed to have been there for many, many years, rather than just six. The previous clearance work obviously didn't work that time and I wonder what the thinking was behind repeating it this time ? Is that what they will do, clear the areas every few years giving the wildlife no chance of establishing themselves ?? That is shocking and just shows the utter incompetence and lack of knowledge by the people concerned with making the decisions. Why don't you have more say in how other parts of the forest are managed as I'm sure that your experience wouldn't go amiss.
 
I've been out again today and have seen 3 males and 2 females at the bottom of the forest and in addition, there was a few males dotted around and another pair in the area beside the area with all the willows piled ontop of the heather. This is all good news if the Adders are still in the cleared areas. However, it makes you wonder what we should be seeing and aren't there anymore, the animals killed, that is the sad part !
 
I can't comment on when the best time to clear the trees away from the heather, maybe someone with better knowledge than me may advise here. I would think that leaving them until late Autumn is best as while the trees are there at the moment it stops people wandering into that area looking for and disturbing the Adders !! A mixed blessing !!
 
If you do clear I will do my best to come and help if you want. PM me with the dates.
 
Chris      


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2012 at 9:55pm
Jonathan welcome to the forum.

I'm not sure referring to us as 'you reptiles' was particularly appropriate but I do welcome your input. I'm certainly a mammal but do prefer warmer days and like to stay in bed when it is cold outside, so perhaps I have some redundant reptile genes.

Please be aware that many of us have had issues with local Wildlife Trusts, NT, RSPB, NE regarding these types of management schemes for many years now across the entire country.

Of course we start by trying to work with those who claim to be on the same side, but the actual results speak for themselves time and time again regarding the loss of what is currently good wildlife habitat during often very poorly conducted management schemes. Having myself been infuriated by such 'management' in the past and seen the devastating results for a whole host of wildlife species I can quite understand any member of this forum letting off some steam on the subject.

My own stance is that the workers on the ground are my best allies indeed, the problems seem generally higher up the 'chain of command'. However I seem to remember the criticism was heavy handed management before the clearance work. Again something many of us will have witnessed or experienced first hand at many other sites. Generally an easy issues to clear up as once the workers are informed of the importance of particular features by surveyors, minor changes can make major differences. 

I would like to think out of these very sad events, that you and Chris can get together on the ground and do what is best for all the wildlife still remaining on the site.



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