Snakes, Coroline, onduline and I
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Category: General
Forum Name: UK Reptiles and Amphibians
Forum Description: A forum for general questions and answers relating to wild reptiles and amphibians in the UK
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Topic: Snakes, Coroline, onduline and I
Posted By: Noodles
Subject: Snakes, Coroline, onduline and I
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 3:17pm
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I have come to the conclusion (not solely) that Onduline is the best material for surveying snake sites. Having said that it is bloomin' expensive compared to say tin. I have found Coroline for a couple of quid less per sheet, but have never used it or read of it being used, although i'm sure a more dedicated herpetophile than I has. The manufacture's notes inform me that the fundamental difference is the thickness (2.6mm compared to 3mm Onduline). Presumably this would affect its heat retention properties but to what degree? Has anyone used it? Does anyone know where to get the cheapest Onduline/Coroline or is the information privileged (like the generosity of my local bottle bank Cheers P.S. is anyone else itching to get out to the heath and mire. Happy new year on the 1st of January! I don't think so, i'll be saving me bunting and party poppers for March thank you very much! |
)? Has anyone noted the minimum size sheet for attracting snakes or a wallet friendly compromise (assuming the bigger the sheet the better) Replies:
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 12:43am
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I rate onduline too for snakes, it never fails to produce lizards either which tin can be very very poor for. One sheet of Onduline, cut in three is about the right size to handle for us and right to produce animals. Not too small to not be attractive, not too large that it is difficult to lift or spot all the animals. Generally we source the sheets through builders merchants and cut ourselves. |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 11:55am
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Thanks for that Gemma. Have you tried Coroline and if so how do you rate it? Cheers |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 1:17am
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I've not purchased Coroline, but I have used it in the field while working under another consultancy. It's 'OK' in terms of producing animals, but I found it broke up more easily than Onduline. It might therefore be a false economy if it falls apart during recovery and isn't useable again. Though to be fair I don't know just how old this stuff was as it wasn't me that placed. Just didn't seem as good. |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 11:41am
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I have been using recycled plastic sheets made from the
left over or damaged sections of reptile exclusion fencing I have never really rated Onduline in my experience - I tend to prefer a mixture of materials - hardboard, tin, felt and now recycled plastic sheets. Jon ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 4:05am
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I can't imagine why you wouldn't rate Onduline Jon. We have excellent results for all four widespread species and all lifestages. Highest count of lizards 'on' Onduline was 22. Our 'record' for capture using Onduline was less than a minute.. a common lizard on the M20 started basking on a sheet whilst I was laying the rest of the row. It's also the only material I've regularly had a 'full house' of the widespread species under and the only material I've used that will produce a 'quick' show of adder. (In quick I mean about a month after it was laid, compared to over 18 months at times for tin) The only time I now use other materials is for slow worm. They love ordinary inexpensive roofing felt. So we double up with it if we have slow worm on site. We did once trial Onduline against tin on a large mitigation of common lizards. Onduline 320 captures.. Tin 1 ... It's also extremely rare to find fatalities under Onduline, though I have seen a fair few animals 'cooked' under tin. The only criticism I've ever heard regarding the product is it is 'cheap' compared to tin and hence why favoured by some consultancies. I'm glad to say my experience with the product proved to me that is not the case at all. It is favoured because it delivers results. |
Posted By: Matt Harris
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 1:13pm
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I wish more consultants would use Coroline and Onduline. I'm fed up of getting reports where they've put down 50cm x 50cm sheets of roofing felt and after a couple of months pronounce that there are no adders, grass snakes or common lizards on the site.
Saying that, I've got a bunch or Onduline sheets on an adder site and they studiously avoid them; not one adder in 5 years even though they're quite happy to sit a few feet away. ------------- Local Authority Ecologist |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 1:33pm
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I don't rate it as it isn't that effective (in past
experience) or at least I can survey with tin recycled plastic, wooden boards and visual searches and get the results I need without the use of corrugated felt tiles. Reptiles will use pretty much anything which gives warmth, cooling and shelter. Discarded rubbish and other materials can also produce reptiles. I imagine it has a lot to do where you place ACO's and I also agree that ACO's for adders tend to be less effective than visual surveys. There are times when small pieces of felt is necessary for example in a very public area where you need to hide ACOs. I have 20 pieces of felt at a local churchyard my record number of reptiles is 152 under these most are slow-worms. I know a well known former employee of HCT who is now 3 years into his consultancy work who is advocating using smaller pieces of felt - less than 0.25m2!!! ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 1:38pm
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I have to say I don't generally encounter snakes under
roofers? felt, other than perhaps occasional juveniles/immatures (although I?m probably doing something wrong?). I do like tin and I can get hold of the old stuff from me local tinker much cheaper than Onduline. The problem is I like checking refugia for slow-worm (and perhaps C. Lizard) on slightly cooler, overcast days (when I can survey all day and still get excellent results). In these conditions tin seems to become too cold and doesn't cut the mustard for me. Clearly I would not expect to find many snakes in such conditions but I do like to make the most of our all too brief herping calendar, so I require a good all round material suitable for surveying all the 'common or widespread' species under a range of differing weather conditions. I like the idea of using fence off cuts, although I have never used them myself, or board for that matter. I frequently find reptiles under such dumped materials though. I did once use the laminated wooden doors and panels from my rebuffed kitchen units. The result was slow-worm initially but then a high humidity built up (due to the cool and non-porous laminate no doubt), the grass turned to slush and the toads and GCNs moved in and the slow-worms out. Either that or the ants decided to build their labyrinthine cities beneath. One of the best materials I used were off cuts from an old half inch thick, fibre reinforced industrial rubber belt drive that I found in a defunct aggregates quarry. Fantastic stuff for reptiles and amphibians (it had amazing heat retention and distribution qualities in that the underside was never overly hot). The rubber residue didn't half used to cake my hands and clothes though. I must have smelt like the Michelin man?s underpants. Having said all that I am much in favour of a mixture of cheap and recycled materials. It is often better not to over engineer a possible solution and focus, intuition, confidence and high expectations in your own methods are key to finding such cryptic animals, i think. Cheers for your comments |
Posted By: Mark_b
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 1:48pm
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The raw data from my research masters from April -October 2010. 37 arrays of coroline, tin and felt (100 x 67cm) spread 10m apart (Reading's method)- over approx 0.31 ha. Surveyed 3 days a week, morning, midday and afternoon/evening.
I will be able to provide more details in a few months I personally think its a good idea to have a range of different types of refugia.
edit/// No slow-worms on site ------------- http://www.wgarg.co.uk/"> 
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Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 1:54pm
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P.S.
Gemma, I noticed that my user name appears as 'Scale' and not 'Scales' as intended. Is there a way of changing this? Scale just sounds plain out creepy! 
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Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 2:13pm
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I am encouraged by mark b's results.
I too think that felt is superb for attracting Common Lizards and was surprised to read that people feel otherwise. I had 6 adults under 50 x 50cm roofers' felt and numerous similar scenarios throughout the summer period (often in overcast conditions [under]). Plus they're always roaming around on top of the felt in sunnier conditions. Why no Slow-worm's mark, any theories? What's the habitat like? Their absence must be unusual for a site supporting the 3 other species, no? |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 2:15pm
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Looks like it is only grass snakes that prefer Coroline and
Adders it seems do not prefer felt. In what habitat were these arrays Mark? Also the ACO density is massive yet you have very low numbers of animals? J ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 2:17pm
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No slow-worms present Scale...
Funnily enough it is Chris Reading which coined the lizard do not use ACO's in his research report. His arrays were on Dorset Heathland - many people have viviparous and sand lizards on ACOs including very undersized ACOs - less than 0.25m2 But the data is what we need. I going to test a theory out on my slow-worm population in relation to number, age and size of pieces of felt over 2011 J ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 2:54pm
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Hi Jon,
Speaking of Slow-worms, I often see reference to a 5-10% detection rate of populations in survey reports. Is this based on an ACO density of 10 per ha/ and a defined number of visits? Most reports i have seen using this figure also use an indeterminate number of ACO's (generally far exceeding the often impractical recommended Froglife density for small sites)and a wide variation in survey effort. Has it just been shown that a 5-10% variation covers the broadest range of survey standards? I am often perplexed by its loose application. Cheers |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:04pm
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I suspect that it is just extrapolated from the detection
of the population in great crested newt/amphibian surveys - griffiths suggested that between 2 and 28% of a newt population is seen in peak counts - The half way point is 10% so you can assume that 10% of the population is revealed in the peak counts of a survey - From my trapping results is almost holds water for slow- worms, lizards and possibly grass snakes - the adder tends to be a much smaller percentage - this is based on the peak counts of a survey and its relation to the total number of capture animals within a mitigation project. I see that peak counts of adders tend to be around 1 to 3% of the captured population. It would be good to get some data on this to see whether this is the case. My local churchyard has a peak count of 150 slowworms - so that potentially could be 1500 to 3000 animals! The density of ACOs on this site is 140+ per Ha! far exceeds the Froglife advice sheet - 5 to 10 ACO per hectare which is not relevant to consultancy work any way J ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:33pm
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Jon,
Is that from a single peak count or are you using combined biometrics and suggesting a similar high rate of non- detection over time. Surely a well recorded site (such as yours) would lean more towards a 10% detection rate, if not much greater. Also I'm not sure how GCN capture returns can inform Slow- worm population densities, taking into account that the two species are so distantly unrelated. I'm not saying it is wrong by any means but can you explain? |
Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:54pm
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Well it is basically an assumption - that the peak count
of adults within a survey relates to approx 5 to 10% of the population. The idea for this comes from the data from newt peak counts of between 2 and 28% - taking the half way point is 10% - so you assume that the peak number of adults seen within a survey on one visit is say 10% of the population present - you do not know whether this is the case unless you go and capture all the animals in the survey area - for instance in a mitigation scheme - this is where rescue/capture data can help with determining what survey results could actually mean - it is only relative and not the complete picture as there is many different viables and of course you do not capture all the population - though in many cases you do end up with the majority of animals prior to destructive searches. ------------- Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:59pm
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There are a great deal of factors involved in this discussion and I think no simple answer or single best material though factors like handling and even appearance become important in large consultancy style mitigations. My data shows for example best performance for Onduline is on fairly uniform grassland sites. A habitat we have often encounter on development sites. Adder use refugia, but nearly all my encounters of adult adder under or on refugia are in the summer feeding grounds. .. a pointer that adult adder only tend use refugia for long periods whilst actively feeding. The pattern is similar for adult grass snakes only in this case they are either digesting or sloughing. In all I totally agree we should be flexible and open minded. If I was forced to use one material, it would be Onduline. I too can get results with simple visual survey for adder, it still remains my main technique for adder due to their reluctance near hibernation areas for example to even use refugia. An hours visual survey will often get a result where refugia survey produces nothing for months. The biggest factor though as Jon has stated is placement. I've been out on one of Jon's sites and clearly remember thinking when I saw the refugia 'that's exactly where I would have put them'. Sounds trivial but it compares to being out with many claimed reptile consultants who randomly place refugia with little hope of any of them producing animals as they simply lack a feel for the work. You either see the right places or you don't. It's simply experience of knowing where you would look visually and as many of these people have never perfected visual survey they have no more idea than a member of the public as to where refugia should be placed. For slow worm btw we should be using car doors and concrete slabs and old saucepans..  I remember lifting a car door at the Mabledon Hospital site and what I would guestimate at 40 slow worms were either in or under it. On the same site I lifted a concrete slab covering some of the underground drainage system that remained on the site, and there were 20 slow worms of all lifestages. These were not officially recorded sightings but when I check them against the tin felt survey I undertook at the site a couple of years earlier we only had a handful of slow worm show during the survey and most of these were under carpet tiles left over from a previous survey. The saucepan was on a site that produced no slow worm at all using the usual refugia materials, but under the saucepan we found a huge adult male. |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 4:19pm
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Rob, I don't have access to the forum database to change a user name and the function isn't in the admin menu. Contact Chris Davis who now looks after the hosting and maintenance of RAUK, he may be able to change the user name in the database. |
Posted By: Mark_b
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 9:31pm
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I have no idea why there are no slow-worms at this site. Maybe they never migrated there or couldn't migrate there? The habitat is heathland in south Wales
Yea I was hoping for a lot more animals but they didn't turn up. There were large numbers of grass snakes found through visual encounter survey only 400m away. It has already been discussed in this thread the importance of refugia placement and by using Reading's method I have to put a particular array in a particular place thus many of the refugia are not in what I class as a prime location. That may well be one of the issues but I couldn't test my theories without constructing the experiment this way. I hope to have some interesting results once I have analysed my data, which I shall post asap.
Where do you guys buy metal sheets from out of interest? How many consultancies do visual encounter surveys as well as refugia surveys (when determining presence and when catching reptiles) ? ------------- http://www.wgarg.co.uk/">
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Scale wrote:Posted By: Matt Harris
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 10:35am
Relating to Gemma's post about cardoors and saucepans, I guess we've all seen the 'common' species under just about every object you can think of, from discarded porno mags to fallen gravesones to chucked-out fridges, but going back to ACO's there's a difference between a herp conceivably using an ACO as a one-off, and that ACO being efficient enough at attracting herps to allow a population estimate, site clearance, or even detecting presence/absence on sites with low densities. 0.25m2 roofing felt may be fine for lizards on Dorset heaths, but I wonder how well they would pick up grass snakes and adders in marginal habitats? ------------- Local Authority Ecologist |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 11:05am
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Gemma, I found a slow-worm under a discarded chopping
board once. I wonder what they?re trying to tell us!? Mark, try getting your tin from your local scrap metal yard. Use a more homespun, word of mouth, company such as you might find in a Parish magazine, The Yellow pages etc. Alternatively if you know, or have friends who know, farmers make contact with them. Farmers often have (roofing) materials knocking about and they frequently wish to get rid of them. As I'm sure you know, tin with an aged character seems to perform better anyhow, so you end up paying much less and getting a better working product. Failing those try your local cookware store. Pots and pans could well be the materials for 2011. The methodology for carrying out surveys to accompany planning applications or to seek similar permissions should always include visual surveys. Whether these searches are carried out or not, or indeed successful, is another matter. It would depend, I think, on the individual surveyor's experience, skill and commitment to the project. It would certainly appear in the methodology section of their report, or you would expect it to. Rob |