Hi all,

I've been musing recently about where RAUK should be going in the future. As my own commitments increase with work, I can do very little but monitor posts these days. (anyone remember the last RAUK newsletter they got? )

I've been considering forming a committee to run the site. Made up of say a chair, secretary and a number of 'officers' such as promotion, news, conservation etc. Very similiar to the ARG structure.

I feel this could work, but it would require voluntary input from the various committee members and perhaps a number of meetings each year. Anyone interested in this or think as I do that it might be a good idea?

I'm not really anticipating any changes to the forums (other than perhaps reaching a wider audience of the general public seeking advice) but would like to see the rest of the site such as the news pages becoming a little more dynamic and the site moving away from just being my own original concept.

Wouldn't it be good if we had a section on the site dedicated to herp conservation in gardens etc and a section dedicated to putting the message across to developers and the public regarding habitat loss? There may be other things members would like to see on the site.

Any feedback appreciated as ever,

Gemma

Hi Gemma

I would be very happy to help with the RAUk forum - I wonder if it was possible to link up with the ARG UK coordinating panel to discuss how we could work together to develop the RAUK forum and the work of ARG UK - regarding the county arg's - I think that the ARg UK are looking to provide an ARG Support Officer post - this will be discussed over email and at our next meeting so maybe you could meet up with us so we can discuss ideas -

I am sure that other RAUK members would also be welcome to come along to the meeting which should be in October.

the forum I am sure everyone would agree is an excellent resource for herp conservation volunteers etc

so if anyone else has any ideas of how we proceed then please post here

Jon

Hi Jon, sounds like the meeting of ARG UK could be a way to move this on, certainly it would be good if anyone else from RAUK who thinks this is all a good idea could attend also, though perhaps there should be a meeting beforehand to form a RAUK committee??

The main thing is to get some feedback from current members as to whether they think this would be a good idea and also if they are willing to get involved and give a few hours each week to put some spark into the site.

One area I would be careful of though is group politics. RAUK was devised as an independent resource for a number of reasons, not least the inter-group politics that seem to plague UK herp conservation (god knows why as surely we all have the same common goal and there are not that many of us!!!), this is something that will need to be discussed at a very early stage. I wouldn't want RAUK to simply become the ARG UK forum for example. In fact I would never let that happen! I strongly feel though that the site could be used to present a more united front of the various groups to the general public on the web.

(PS above comments to promote discussion, I'm not assuming that this was your aim!)

Gemma,

Clearly I would help out wherever possible, a couple of issues spring to mind....

1. I would be in favour of working with close co-ordination with ARG UK, HCT etc, but would stress that the forum remains independent of other orgs, just in case personalities change and petty politics get in the way. An air-gap would imo be healthy.

2. An area where I think RAUK scores very highly is its accessibility to the general public. I would be interested in RAUK developing its own distribution database, based on public submissions, which could compliment, and contribute to NARRS, NBN etc. Not a trivial task, but possibly feasible.

3. It appears the majority of non-core posts we get are along the lines of: "I've seen this...what is it?". I think we could easily develop an ID tree, based upon location and 1st order characteristics, rather than the "go look at the ID pages" approach we currently use. I'm developing this approach currently...if it pans out its maybe something we could consider?

Hi Steve,

1. One concept I've considered in the past was RAUK hosting the 'UK Herpetofauna Ring'. Largely this would be a click through page that takes the public to HCT, BHS, Froglife, ARG UK individual ARG sites etc and of course RAUK itself. This would work if each group/organisation agreed to display a logo on their web sites that was linked to the page. It would also instantly provide a united front to the public on the web, regardless of who isn't talking to who at the time  

RAUK was provided as a resource to all groups and individuals, though use of the site has been patchy and often the resource is largely under used - finding out why and getting each group to use the site for a bit of self promotion etc. would be a good starter for the RAUK committee!

I totally agree RAUK must remain independent of any given group - though this is a good reason to have a RAUK commitee as in the past few years I've built up my own prejudices against certain groups/individuals  

2. I want to see this too, it will not be easy, but what an achievement eh?

3. The ID pages don't really work do they! Typical problems are if someone thinks they have seen a lizard they will not look at the newts even though it does mention that they are often confused. There are also some glaring mistakes such as stating that any bright green lizard is a sand lizard.. I should have changed that years ago!

An interactive key would be a much better way and  a lot more fun for the public, good chance to throw in some herp facts while they work their way through it also.  - so an interactive key starting with location, habitat and basic features of the animal would be a really good way to lose all those natterjacks in Essex, smooth snakes in Suffolk and Sand Lizards in Berkshire we get from the online form.

Keep them coming peeps  seems we now have 3 bodies for the RAUK committee

If RAUK got shy Tony due to having a committee I would probably nuke it.. and replace it with RAUK II a week later .

I actually think it is good for RAUK to explore contentious issues, I for one am astounded by the amount of petty politics and self promotional guff that goes on in our small world and the amount of damage it causes.. ooops lets keep the thread on subject for a change!

There is no reason why we couldn't have members in the committee who are not based in the UK, we have a method of communicating after all, something for the agenda of the first meeting??

Excellent to hear the views of others on this - I would say that the ring idea would really good - the ARG UK website has its two main referrers which are Froglife (1st most weeks) and this forum with not a lot of % between them.

So linking up with all the herp organisations will be beneficial I hope for all of them - a united front is much better than a fragmented approach which is currbetly existing - Of course RAUK should be independent - from other orgs - the ARG Uk have come to that conclusion last year - froglife no longer is the secretariat of the HGBI - we have become an independent organisation and we had a great herp workers meeting this year -

Next year's meeting will also be good and I would propose a possible workshop for the RAUK forum on the Sunday - or the new RAUK committee could be introduced to the participants - I would love to have a presentation on RAUK the last few years etc etc

Jon

That's 4 bodies then (5 counting Merv who will have to be the treasurer else he will get upset). Certainly would be good Jon if this could be got off the ground in time for next years Herp workers meeting  (does doing a presentation or a workshop get you in free then??)

A "UK Herpetofauna Ring" linking all the web sites would be a good idea, as at present the links listed on various herp sites are a very patchy list of all those present. If you manage to get a RAUK committee to manage the site then perhaps they could push for the establishment of such a ring with the other organisations. Main problem in forming a committee is finding enough people who can commit time on a regular basis to take part and actually do the work, even if it is by e-mail rather than meeting in person.

Not only are there a lot of "what is it" inquiries on the forum, most seem to start off a new thread so the number of topics under the main headings grows ever bigger. Rather than search to re-activate a relevant topic, I suspect most people just start a new one that repeats a previous thread. (I'm sure I have been guilty of this as I haven't had time to check all the previous topics under the main heading before starting a new one). Perhaps a "topic" for a new RAUK management committee to consider.

Main problem in forming a committee is finding enough people who can commit time on a regular basis to take part and actually do the work, even if it is by e-mail rather than meeting in person.

PS. Jon I agree ARG-UK needs to make the RAUK site more known to members of ARG groups, as I expect most of them don't know it exists. It also covers a lot more topics than the usual run of queries that ARG groups get.

PPS Despite only having a small number of native herp species, why do so many people still wrongly identify UK species?. They probably don't check the ID pages properly so perhaps an interactive key might work better to filter them before they jump to the wrong conclusion based on just looking at the photo's.

Gemma,

I must say (for what its worth) that I agree with you and Steve, namely; that yes, cooperation with other orgs is very nice, but, the thing that attracted me to the site is its "inclusive nature" and "independence" from the large organisations that seem to "run" herptology, especially as I'd seen first hand how these orgs can disregard info/calls for help from "outsiders".

I would be willing to contribute time to a committee if founded, although I make no bones about it, my own 'expertise' relates mainly to Natrix and other more common species of herp and I would have little guidance to give on 'Smoothies' and 'Sandies'! (apart from where to find them and how).

I do agree with Chris about quite a lot of "new threads" relating to old topics, but it would be difficult to explain that to newcomers to the site, when they have "breaking news".

Gemma, the comment you made about the forum's use being sketchy, has a lot to do with; a). Summer sightings of herps are less frequent than in Spring/Autumn for reasons such as more herbage cover, less need to bask and Herps being quicker etc. b). Paradoxically, more foot traffic to Herp spots in Summer means fewer sightings because of the retiring nature of herps and c). The standard of report/photos/knowledge on RAUK is so high, that, incidentals such as 'slow worm found dead in road' is probably not thought of as "important" (just an example, not an opinion) so may not get reported. The committee may be able to sift through older posts (more than a year say) and take out stuff that has been covered/dealt with?

You're right, a news letter would help this and each news letter could have an ID page of a couple of herps in turn, with the basics. For instance, recently, there was a thread asking for advice on an Adders 'nest' containing eggs! It makes you wonder whether there is a large hole to fill in terms of Herp knowledge in the general public, and that other Herp groups/orgs have missed an opportunity there.

With the advance of Video film and the Steve irwin/Austin Stevens etc roadshows, there may be a niche to fill in producing a video of British herps (of course I would wish to front it LOL LOl ) and it wouldn't be too difficult given the Photo expertise that exists on RAUK to produce a half decent effort that could be "sold" to education authories etc as well as to the genarl public to highlight the sensitivities of the species and the need for greater understanding and empathy (sorry Jon, not a dig!).

If you think these sort of directions could be good to explore, then feel free to let me know.

Cheers

Robert

I'd like to make a small comment on old threads.

Personally, I use old threads quite a lot. I use the search facility to pull out useful information, especially when compiling a web page, as much of the anecdotal evidence is often the more interesting.

I also don't have too much of an issue with threads being resurrected by new users, as it does help to keep some topics from being archived away, and often a fresh perspective creates a new direction to a thread, rather than building upon what has been said before.

Maybe the value of old threads would be to extract the relevant information, and present them in a coherent, summarised format. We get excellent snippets of valuable information with regularity here. I'm currently using RAUK as a significant resource to do just this for the Adder, and its working out very well!

Only personal comments, but wanted the other side of the coin to get some airing :P

Hi Gemma

Regarding the workshop/presentation at the Herp Workers Meeting - it is normal policy to provide expenses for the speaker or workshop leader - so mileage or travel costs will be paid, along with accommodation etc - this was the case for this years herp workers meeting and so I would expect the same for next years

We are currently looking for speakers and anyone who would like to run a workshop - please send suggestions to mailto:Jcranfield@arg-uk.org.uk - Jcranfield@arg-uk.org.uk

We have several speakers on grass snakes, Irish lizards, Phenology etc so if anyone has other topics etc then please get in touch

I would put myself forward as a RAUK committee member - as a representative from ARG UK

Jon

Gemma I think this forum is excellent. To be able to be in contact with those of you who work with herps and hear your opinions and gain from your experience and observations is great. Likewise those of us who are just very keen amateurs or volunteers can maybe feel we have something to offer and can ask often silly questions without being ridiculed. I think Robert's first para of his post today sort of says it all for me.

Those of who can, like to try and make a difference in our own little plots for flora and fauna and the fact that I can attract so much to my compost heaps and pond is a thing I am proud of - so yes more encouragement in that direction.

I don't really know how I can help so probably a donation will be my offer. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Best wishes with whatever you decide to do.

Well guys a great response! So it would seem a committee for RAUK gets a majority vote  (Jon I would rather have you as an active member of RAUK than the representative of ARG-UK, maybe you can represent us to them! There is a reason why most ARG members do not know about RAUK, but lets hope the dynamics of things have changed enough to address that soon. (anyone know also why the BHS refused to put the web address in the Natterjack??? - since then I've not bothered to renew my subscription as it seems to go against the point of being a member)

Some really good points have been raised. I'm as guilty as anyone on other forums for asking questions covered before, much of this is the limitations of search facilities and choice of keywords to use in the search or a lack of knowledge on the subject to know what should be searched for in the first place.

I wanted to know the other day why my newly aquired Range Rover goes into a death wobble at 60 mph so went to my favourite landy forum. It was only after I posted that I found 2 days before someone had posted a thread 'high speed shimmy' which gave all the answers. Not a phrase I might of thought of searching for.

The usual way around this is to put a statement like 'search this forum before posting' which I think is a little un-welcoming and also I believe that most people do any way before joining but simply do not find the answer. We are not so busy that we cannot accomodate newbies asking the same old questions in my opinion and I'm sure regular users can easily find the old threads where information is covered and post a link. Having said that I think going through some of the old threads to condense some of the information and creating web pages from it is an excellent idea.

Suzi, your comments sum up for me why I originally created RAUK, I wanted a forum where everyone with an interest in our UK wild herps could communicate and share ideas/observations. Whether it be the fact they have their first frog in their garden or have just published an intersting research paper. There will be lots of tasks for committee members where a deep technical knowledge is not required such as news gathering etc.. so no one who regularly uses the forums should feel that they are not 'qualified' to contribute or join the committee in my opinion. Rob's comments reference to sandies and smooth snakes highlights this, I know nowt about them either, fortunately we happen to have two of the countries leading field experts on the species as members in any case as well as a good few people from the HCT who lurk on occasion.

To move all this on (I'm a bit snowed under at the moment to call a meeting but lets aim for some time in November?) this is the statement we provide to describe RAUK. My question is do we achieve this and if not how do we move towards this aim? Is it what we should be aiming for, or should we have a different or ammended statement?

About the RAUK Forum

The Reptiles & Amphibians of the UK (RAUK) bulletin board was created to allow networking, discussion, exchange of information and expression of views regarding all aspects of the United Kingdoms native herpetofauna. From reptiles and amphibians seen in gardens and the wider countryside, to the often thorny issues of herpetofauna conservation, including impact of development and habitat management, RAUK is the UK's premier site to air your views, ask for information or simply to let the world know that the first frog has arrived in your wildlife pond!

I think that this is an exciting time for all concerned - the RAUK forum fills a useful niche on the internet - which will help herp conservation on the local, county, regional, national and of course international scale.

I am also still committed to the ARG group system across the country and there will be discussions within the coordinating panel for ARG UK - one possible problem is the confusion between RAUK and ARG UK what each of these are as their titles are similar I suppose -

I believe that RAUK is very much a new modern way of communicating between amateurs, professionals, members of the public etc - publicising through the ARG groups will hopefully help form stronger groups on the ground aswell as boost numbers on the forum.

I feel that the RAUK forum should be represented at the Herp Workers Meeting along with ARG UK, HCT, NARRS etc as they are all herp related projects which should work closely together for the benefit of the British Herpetofauna.

Being part of the RAUK committee I would then hold two hats - RAUK & ARG UK - so I would put myself up for being the RAUK representative on the ARG UK coordinating panel - so please send me all your suggestions, queries, questions etc that you would like me to bring up to the ARG UK - thats if I am accepted as the RAUK rep by the new RAUK committee.

Jon

Hrm...

One issue here is glaringly obvious, the need for a high-level strategy, with each component of the Herp community playing to its strengths.

The process is simple, on paper, but no idea how good the stakeholder buy-in would be. I suppose that's no reason for RAUK not to develop a strategy, even a mixed bag of how we would like the overall strategy to be, and reality, in order to set the proper context for RAUK. This is something we will have to do anyway, to understand the issues when interfacing with other orgs.

Does such an aspiration exist within the community ?

We have a powerful set of building blocks in place: ARG UK/ARGs, HCT, BHS, RAUK etc, and I feel that without some form of framework, we risk stepping on eachothers toes in a non-constructive way. Some degree of toe-stepping is of course useful :P

Anyway, I get paid to do this sort of thing, so if I can be useful, I'm more than happy to help out.

LOL Tony, poor old boy that you are  Better to have a grumpy old fart who speaks their mind rather than too many politicians scared of treading on toes in my view. The pet orientated forums had a lot to do with the creation of RAUK as I got tired of not being able to find anyone to talk to about our native species. These days I do not even visit the other herp forums.

Hmmm it is similiar Jon, RAUK and ARG-UK I wonder how that happened, but of course RAUK came first  

I've no problem with upping RAUK's profile within the ARG system, all for it, but not to forget that RAUK should also be there for the public, those conserving herps in their gardens and even those nasty consultant types we hear about and even perhaps developers, god forbid.

All things we need to address.

I guess Steve we have the question 'is RAUK heading towards becoming an organisation in its own right'... now there is an interesting thought. Certainly beyond the original concept I had for the website.

The least it should be though is a one stop shop for news within the UK herp world and information in my view. Not sure it has achieved that for a number of possible reasons.

Rofl, don't get me started on semantics !

Cambridge: organisation, noun [C] : "a group of people who work together in a structured way for a shared purpose:"

We possibly don't clear the 'structured' hurdle :P

But....great point: Any offers for a one-liner purpose statement for the UK herpetological community ? (possibly excluding exotic pet trade).

Yeah I fully understand that RAUK did come first - but the new name was needed I feel due to the lack of direction from what was the HGBI and its Secretariat - it was great when Jim Fosters was in his Common Species project post but after that it was lost - so now we have the new name and we have ditched the secretariat - welll they also agreed that they were not interested in ARG's - so we felt we needed a new name - and so the ARG UK was born last year

I feel that the RAUK has a lot to offer the herp conservation world on so many levels - ready access to the experts, instant answers to various problems and I do feel that we need to increase the standards in consultancy work - one action is to get consultants to send in their records to local recorders - this will be part of my course this September for Reptile Mitigation (IEEM course) where I will be publicsing the RAUK, ARG's NARRS etc - you have to face facts and it is the consultants that are collecting the most records generally - they are paid to do this so we need to tap into this source of records

Jon

Hi Jon,

Actually the similarity in the names isn't really a problem, in some ways it almost seems to pave a way for future co-operation. ARG-UK seems good to me and better than the HGBI which didn't really say what it was.

I totally agree that consultants should be passing records to local recorders though this is a whole can of worms in itself. (I can think of a myriad of reasons why I don't always do this other than laziness which is one factor ).

Hopefully this can be addressed by yourself in your course. Do you need to be a member of IEEM to attend by the way? I could quite fancy being a fly on the wall at that one

Gemma

I too think that the forum does fullfil a useful purpose not covered by the web sites of the other main herpetological organisations. I tend to visit the others for specific reasons ie ARG-UK for contact details of ARG Groups, notices of meetings & events. However RAUK complements the other web sites as they do not cater for discussion of topics, unusual or even ordinary sightings etc. It also reaches many people who are not members of groups but just have an interest in the natural world. Although some sort of linkage with other organisations would be an idea, it definitely needs to stay independant.

On the slightly separate topic introduced by Jon, surely English Nature/Natural England and HCT should be pushing consultancies to pass their herp records onto Record Centres. I know all the arguments why it doesn't happen to a greater extent. Still it is difficult when I get passed information by consultants who ask me not to report it but just want to let me know where they've turned up great crested newts but the client won't let them publicise it. I've got several locations that I just have to keep in my head in case there is a future proposal that will threaten the area.

I must be misunderstanding something here....

Don't consultants underake surveys on behalf of their clients to satisfy the PPS9 requirements of local councils? If so...aren't council conservation officers best placed to collate such information? and pass onto local records centres?...or are there IPR issues ?

For gods sake

why are they twitchy about the biological records being used for information purposes especially when they have been forwarded to English Nature (license returns), DEFRA (survey information) and of course to local authorities (part of ecology reports for planning applications) all of which are government bodies so therefore all the information is available in the public domain.

What is the point of doing the survey in the first place if the records are not used for conservation purposes?

Gem, the course I think is more expensive for non members - double I think

I feel that my job is being a 'conservationist' through my consultancy work - I am planning to send all my records to the relevant people/groups or organisations in Dorset, Surrey, Hampshire, Kent, Essex and Hertfordshire - on one job in Hampshire my contract obligated me to send a summary of records to HBIC -

I do not buy into the confidentiality fo biological records - also I do not think the client buys the copyright to the records - the advice and reports etc produced from the surveys is what the client is paying for - so with the landowners permission all biological records should be fed into the local recording system or the BRC or RAUK!

A ha back onto the topic.....

Jon

Hi,

One page on the RAUK website may have to dedicated to explaining the meanings of all the shortened orgs names, for a start!!!

Read through this thread: you have DEFRA, BRC, HBIC, ARG UK etc etc. What do we do about that one then?!

Also, Jon, clients may be twitchy about info reaching other sources, if for instance, they are awaiting a twelve year "squatters rights" ruling on land and have only commissioned an environmental survey in order to be ready for issues arising once the twelve year rule has been achieved. This is only one 'for instance' but, if it were the case, I could understand why they wouldn't want others knowing about the location etc.

I second the question; "why doesn't the Natterjack want to link RAUK?" The BRS are a constant puzzle to me.

Also, I agree with Gemma and co on the issue of other sites becoming more concerned with captive husbandry of exotics, rather than aiming at the promotion, conservation and genreal knowledge of wild and native species, thats why RAUK is as important if not more important (or will eventually become so) than some other sites on the web.

Whatever direction RAUK chooses to go in and whomsoever joins the committee, for me, it should remember that although Steves comment on "uncoordinated" has a lot of validity, it nonetheless is the amalgum of lots and lots of incidental reports on species habits, habitat destruction and changes and 'bits and pieces' of "trivia" that often add up to important research. If you take away the "amatuer inclusion" then you risk becoming like the other sites.

Cheers

Robert

Hi David

I think that most people recognise the excellent work that is published within the BHS journals and long may it continue.

I also noticed that there are links to RAUK and others on the BHS website so I suppose that an article about RAUK for the natterjack may be a good way of getting the web address in this publication

Regards

Jon

IMO the BHS rocks! & David has personally helped me out many times in chasing down scientific papers.

Just thought I'd mention that the new Natterjack editor, is of course a member of this forum ! and also helped to put together the NARRS webpages. How's that for an integrated community?

Hi,

above comments noted, but, as far as I can recall, I haven't seen David's name (in person) taken in vain on this site?

BHS is not only one man though is it?

I'm sure that some people's experiences of the BHS may not have been so satisfying as those that had the good fortune to contact the right person. From my personal point of view, my beef goes back to 1995/6, and I accept that things change, personnel changes also, and that experience may not have ANY relevance today. So i'm content to let sleeping dogs lie.    

I hope you lot won't mind too much though, if I don't renew my membership!

Cheers

Robert

Yes Rob I actually contacted David from a link on here so nothing to do with BHS.

RSPB=Birds

?=Herpetofauna

Suz,

How about RAUK = Herptofauna?

R

LOL Rob,

RAUK = herpetofauna = herpetofauna.co.uk

I knew it would catch on one day! 

I think David has raised a very good point here about our UK herp groups/societies and organisations. Many are voluntary and limited by human resources and funding.

The main 'problem', if it is a problem as such, I've come across is that of 'expectation' of members. Often it is different to what the group either strives to provide or is able to, which may lead to disappointment.

Today I saw bulldozers moving across a site I voluntarily surveyed for an ARG, reported to the county wildlife trust as a key reptile site (exceeding their criteria for county wildlife site (SNCI)) and spent a great deal of my personal time and money trying to protect.

Today there was NO reptile mitigation in sight.. what happened to the report and records I wonder? I guess I could feel bitter that nobody ensured that the adder on the site were protected, but really I just feel terribly sad about it all, clearly my expectation of these groups exceeded what they could deliver. No protection and the site not even reconised as a key reptile site.

Still, back to the point of this thread, an important issue has been raised by way of David's defence of the BHS.

What do those who use RAUK expect of it? Does it deliver the expectations and should RAUK strive to meet some of the expectations of the public, as an organisation, rather than just being a web forum, that are currently not covered by the existing UK herp organisations?

Be interested in any views.

Sorry I'm a bit late catching up with this thread.

As I see it, we have a group of people who all want to help herps. So they join all these different organisations. Now unless you're a Time Lord and can bend space and time, you aren't gonna have enough hours in a day, to make a really good job of it. If you want to make a difference, concerntrate your efforts, don't spread yourselves out over various committees/groups. Commit to one group (preferebly RAUK) and do your damndest to get things done.

I'm already on the LVNP committee, producing the newsletter and this takes up my time 'cause I want to produce the best darn newsletter I can. When I took over the role, the quarterly newsletter was 2 sides of A4 black and white. Now it is 12 pages of colour. It is hard work keeping the standard up and so I can't help out on any more committees. 

But I do think RAUK is a worthy cause. And if any body is going to help Gemma out with this idea, please give it 110%.

Thanks Gemma for all your work. Don't you wish you could just kick some a**e, sometimes?

Maybe you could if everyone pulls together. There are a lot of intelligent people here (and I don't include myself) so one would hope something concrete could be achieved.

Here's hoping.