the online meeting place for all who love our amphibians and reptiles
Home Page Live Forums Archived Forums Site Search Identify Record Donate Projects Links
Forum Home Forum Home > General > UK Reptiles and Amphibians
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - New UK Species of snake?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

New UK Species of snake?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
chubsta View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2013
Location: Folkestone,Kent
Status: Offline
Points: 216
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chubsta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New UK Species of snake?
    Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 3:53pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40853286

opinions?


Edited by chubsta - 07 Aug 2017 at 3:54pm
Back to Top
Hawley View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hawley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 4:20pm
Hmm, just seen that. Very interesting
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 729
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 4:41pm
Very interesting, yes, BUT not what the research actually shows - see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07847-9

Chris
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 729
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 5:14pm
For those who don't like wading through scientific data this can be summarised as follows:-

  • Extensive research into the genetics of grass snakes across Europe revealed distinct genetic differences sometimes, but not invariably, similar to current sub-species classifications.
  • The animals fell into three broad groups -  a western group which had very limited breeding with .......... the central group which had extensive interbreeding with ............. the eastern group
  • They propose that the genetic distance of the western group Natrix natrix helvetica ("our" grass snake) is so large (c. 7.3-8.2 million years) that it should be classed as a separate species
  • As a result our grass snake would become Natrix helvetica helvetica
  • The small number of known alien grass snakes in the UK would remain Natrix natrix persa
And that, as I say, very simplistically. So, it would mean that technically speaking we have two species of grass snake - one  native one the same as it always has been but elevated to separate species status and the other introduced and relatively scarce which is not so elevated

And, of course, this all depends on what definition of what constitutes a species - which no-one seems to be able to agree on!

All the best
Chris
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
Tom Omlette View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 Nov 2013
Location: Stoke on Trent
Status: Offline
Points: 414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Omlette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 6:08pm
Thanks Chris

I have already reposted your summary elsewhere, taking all the credit myself of course lol. 

How many persa populations are we aware of by the way.

tim

Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 729
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 7:23pm
Hi Tim

Hmm - tricky that one. I know a man who knows and will try to get in touch with him

All the best
Chris
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
PondDragon View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PondDragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Iowarth Iowarth wrote:

  • As a result our grass snake would become Natrix helvetica helvetica

Your 2nd helvetica is unnecessary as Natrix helvetica has no subspecies. It's just Natrix helvetica.
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 729
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 10:31am
Sorry PondDragon, but I have to differ. Under the proposed new classification, all of the western grass snakes have become Natrix helvetica with several sub-species. Thus we now have five sub-species within the proposed new species ( see table extracted from the relevant research paper at foot of post). Thus, although it would be permissible to refer to our grass snake as Natrix helvetica if it was clear that we were referring only to the native UK animals, in a wider context it is one of five distinct sub-species and the full nomenclature would be correct.
All the best
Chris
Old name .............................. New name
Natrix natrix helvetica Natrix helvetica helvetica
Natrix natrix cetti Natrix helvetica cetti
Natrix natrix corsa Natrix helvetica corsa
Natrix natrix lanzai Natrix helvetica lanzai
Natrix natrix sicula Natrix helvetica sicula
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
PondDragon View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PondDragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 11:03am
Yes, sorry I missed that bit of the paper. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the range-restricted subspecies though when they get round to more complete genetic analyses.
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 729
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 11:39am
Yes, I agree totally with that (even though I am a "lumper" rather than a "splitter" and maintain that most of these species separation are actually scientific evidence for sub-species - something which has never before existed)
Chris
Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.06
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.