Hatchling sand lizards

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   Is anyone seeing any hatchling sand lizards in the wild in the South this year? Between us all, the grand total of hatchling sightings on the Sefton Coast so far this season is 1, although I know a few have been seen in Wales as well.
Its all rather worrying, with the awful Summer weather we've had, although if we get some decent weather in the next few weeks more may appear yet.

Cheers
Mike

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mikebrown Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 108	Post Options Post Reply Quote mikebrown Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Hatchling sand lizards Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 9:59am
	Is anyone seeing any hatchling sand lizards in the wild in the South this year? Between us all, the grand total of hatchling sightings on the Sefton Coast so far this season is 1, although I know a few have been seen in Wales as well. Its all rather worrying, with the awful Summer weather we've had, although if we get some decent weather in the next few weeks more may appear yet. Cheers Mike
	Mike Brown Merseyside ARG

AGILIS Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1689	Post Options Post Reply Quote AGILIS Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 11:29am
	Mike after vast searching on many the Isle of Purbeck heaths and other sights last. I did not see any its a bit frightening as it looks like a lot of the eggs have not made it due to the cold wet spring and early summer that may have caused them probs incubating ?I spoke to Will earlier last week on this and I think he feels the same,but some may turn up as they may have been hiding from last weeks heatwave? Keith Edited by AGILIS - 12 Sep 2012 at 11:30am
	LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID

will Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830	Post Options Post Reply Quote will Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 12:01pm
	Hi Mike, to echo Keiths comments, I have not seen a single hatchling this year, in spite of spending a week on holiday in Purbeck at the end of August plus a couple of visits since. Admittedly I was not looking specifically for them, but would normally expect to pick up records incidentally. Worrying indeed, I think.

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 7:19pm
	This sounds a bit worrying. I'm no sandy expert, is there anyway of knowing if a single bad year for hatchlings could have serious implications for sand lizard populations? Or is it more a case of a worrying trend?

mikebrown Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 108	Post Options Post Reply Quote mikebrown Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 9:53pm
	Hi Gemma What's even more worrying here in the North-West is that the populations of sand lizards already appear to have dropped significantly in numbers, at least on some sites, this year. We think this is mainly due to the fact that each Summer since 2006 has had poorer than average weather. We have always seen at least some hatchlings until this year, but often they have appeared later in the season than they should, meaning that there is less opportunity for them to feed up before hibernation in the Autumn, making them less likely to survive their first Winter. This year, the extremely bad weather in June may have caused a considerable number of females to re-absorb their eggs, rather than developing inside them through the warmth of the sun and then being successfully laid. This is something that some of the Captive Breeders of sand lizards have experienced this year. So its rather a gloomy outlook at present for sandy populations here, something which will probably only be rectified by a succession of summers with predominantly good weather. Cheers Mike
	Mike Brown Merseyside ARG

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 10:00pm
	Thanks for explaining Mike, that sounds pretty grim, lets keep our fingers crossed for some better summers. Edited by GemmaJF - 12 Sep 2012 at 10:01pm

AGILIS Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1689	Post Options Post Reply Quote AGILIS Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Sep 2012 at 7:23am
	It look s like viviparous lizards have the advantage on the egg layers as the young are all nice and safe in the mothers womb until the nearing birth without the worry of cold damp sand relying on the weather for incubation.perhaps is that why commons are successful? But whilst saying this the wall lizrds of the Boscombe cliffs also lay eggs and the hatchlings have been very successful and abundant this year so why have the LA seem to be down on sightings????keith
	LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID

mikebrown Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 108	Post Options Post Reply Quote mikebrown Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Sep 2012 at 10:16am
	Hi Keith I would suspect the answer to that one is that the wall lizards have a shorter incubation period, both for egg development in the mother and hatching in the ground, meaning that they can get several clutches away during the year. So if one clutch fails its not a serious problem. I don't know about down South, but the particular problem we had here with the sand lizards this year was the appalling weather in June, just as egg development in the mothers and egglaying should have been taking place. Sand lizards don't normally double clutch in the wild, even in a good Summer, as far as we know. Cheers Mike
	Mike Brown Merseyside ARG

AGILIS Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1689	Post Options Post Reply Quote AGILIS Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Sep 2012 at 4:45pm
	True pity the La dont have a back up
	LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Sep 2012 at 5:19pm
	We have to look on the bright side Keith, things might look grim but we have Mike monitoring the situation. Even in the fairly recent past they may have just faded away and we would have all been debating what happened to them. I wondered Mike is there any possibility of some form of intervention if things continue to get worse? Perhaps something like deploying Onduline ACO's with a heater lamps run off a generator or some such in the field, to give the mothers a chance to develop the eggs and prevent re-absorption during the vital time in June? I guess if it had side walls and top with good insulation and was open at one side it could retain heat quite well in the field. I can see this might present some major problems, and the lizards might be reluctant to use an artificial device, but perhaps the concept could be tested on the captive animals, particularly as you have mentioned egg re-absorption in the captive breeding programme? I do remember hearing of a case where red eared terrapins managed to hatch in the UK because they were laid in a outdoor heated box provided for wildfowl. Edited by GemmaJF - 13 Sep 2012 at 5:30pm