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Grass snake scars

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johnc79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnc79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2011 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by stuart stuart wrote:

Hi John
How are you suggesting that the weak gene pool would cause these scars?

Or could it be that the population is small because its being predated by the increasing buzzard population?

Stuart


I'm no expert but how it was explained to me was due to inbreeding in smaller populations that you get defects like the belly scales. This is not proven but we found more snakes with these scars in the isolated populations than the larger populations. That said natrix will travel further to other populations so would Be less chance off inbreeding in theory.
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Robert V View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert V Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 5:31pm
Ok guys,
 
look at this. Two scars (and some nasty lesions), but the crucial point (forgive the pun) is to be found at the end (toward the rear of the snake!) of the first scar. You will see the point has entered again in a single pin prick and left off. Obviously it snagged on a bramble which cut along, it came out and snagged again but maybe the snake stopped moving which is why it only pierced and didn't cut, and the snake maged to release itself before it slid off again.
 
Does that finally settle it?! Interesting though.
 
R
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stuart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 10:55pm
 
Hi John,
I dont think these scars are the result of genetic abnormality, I believe them to be the result of a physical injury. The population I observe and find these scars in is spread over a large area and not isolated. If it was genetic I would expect to see these marks on smaller/younger snakes.
 
Rob,
The marks on the snake in your image are not really comparable in terms of definition/depth to the marks I find and am curious about. The ones I have encountered have a definite sharp edge to the scar and have obviously penetrated the scale further than those very superficial marks on your image. Thanks for your suggestion though.
 
Regards
Stuart 

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Noodles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Noodles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 10:57pm
You may well be right but the flip side is that this is the beginning of the scar, which could support a raptor attack could it not? I would think a bramble could only inflict this kind of injury if the snake were being dragged backwards against it's will. That seems reasonable if that is what you are suggesting? If so it would explain why the injury is consistent with a snake moving backwards; vis the puncture mark at the head of the wound is not likely to be an exit wound.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Noodles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 10:59pm
Stuart, i think we crossed our streams
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stuart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stuart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 11:09pm
Big smile
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Robert V View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert V Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 7:43am
Well I tried. Ok guys carry on as you will. But the thought that there may be a team of animal scientists quietly going around the countryside slicing open Natrix (to install electronic tags?!) is frankly ridiculous, someone in this group would have heard / witnessed this - and that a raptor attack would leave clean lines again- sorry but ridiculous.
 
And gene pool? No I think not. In every other thread on here you guys are never done telling me that there is no problem with the ever shrinking home range groups... In forty or fifty years maybe the case, at the moment I doubt it.
 
Still, if it keeps you speculating and conversing thats the important thing.
 
Stu - where is your study area? How many groups / individuals are you studying?
 
R
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Noodles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 9:17am
You may well be right Rob and i don't believe anyone said categorically otherwise. But don't presume to know for sure until you have the evidence. After all, if you did there would be no debate.

P.S. I don't think its genetic or scientific tagging. Therefore you'd have to assume that the most likely causes would be thorns/predators etc. and since i'm sure that you are no expert on the injuries inflicted by raptors can you honestly say that you are in a position to wholly discredit it? How do you know an attack leaves clean lines!? (and please no Wikipedia pics or misquotes from unofficial web pages Thumbs Up) Is a bramble not similar to a talon, could a struggling snake not affect the way in which the injury is inflicted?

Take a moment to consider others' ideas because most have considered yours. 
Cheers
Rob
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 10:58am
I think we are looking at several different causes.

I've known plenty of herpetologists who will drag  a snake out of undergrowth backwards rather than concede the snake has won the day which could account for some of the bramble type injuries. I think the cleaner 'scar's are likely to be genetic abnormality though we need to see them on neonate snakes to confirm this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stuart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Robert V Robert V wrote:

Well I tried. Ok guys carry on as you will. But the thought that there may be a team of animal scientists quietly going around the countryside slicing open Natrix (to install electronic tags?!) is frankly ridiculous, someone in this group would have heard / witnessed this - and that a raptor attack would leave clean lines again- sorry but ridiculous.
 
And gene pool? No I think not. In every other thread on here you guys are never done telling me that there is no problem with the ever shrinking home range groups... In forty or fifty years maybe the case, at the moment I doubt it.
 
Still, if it keeps you speculating and conversing thats the important thing.
 
Stu - where is your study area? How many groups / individuals are you studying?
 
R
 
Rob
 
The area I study covers several square miles of heath and woodland. There seems to be a large population that are found across several areas of it. You'll no doubt forgive me for not posting publically where it is.
I think its a shame you ridicule other peoples suggestions, especially as you have not yet offered anything in the way of evidence to the debate. So far you posted a photo, made suggestions and offered your assumptions which I personally dont accept. I asked you before, but you didn't reply, about having any photographic evidence of damage caused by known raptor attacks that you have claimed to witness. Do you actually have any? Or for that matter,any other evidence that would prove my suggestion is "ridiculous" as you claim? Or is it just a case of "my opinion is bigger than your opinion?"
 
Regards
 
Stuart
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