palmate or smooth?

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   Hi All,

I'm looking for some ID help. I know there are difficulties in separating female palmate from smooth newts and I confess I have never knowingly seen a palmate. What do you think of this individual I photographed in the south Manchester area on 13th June - could it be my first palmate? It certainly has an unspotted throat with dull pinkish shades, but I don't know the extent of variation in smooth newt females. There were also male smooth newts in the same pond.

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Sharpbill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 14 Jun 2013 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sharpbill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: palmate or smooth? Posted: 14 Jun 2013 at 11:00pm
	Hi All, I'm looking for some ID help. I know there are difficulties in separating female palmate from smooth newts and I confess I have never knowingly seen a palmate. What do you think of this individual I photographed in the south Manchester area on 13th June - could it be my first palmate? It certainly has an unspotted throat with dull pinkish shades, but I don't know the extent of variation in smooth newt females. There were also male smooth newts in the same pond.

liamrussell Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 100	Post Options Post Reply Quote liamrussell Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 8:51am
	I would say this is a smooth newt as the throat is more beige than pinkish. Would you be able to upload the photo at a higher resolution, or a higher-res crop of the hind feet?

will Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830	Post Options Post Reply Quote will Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 9:31am
	I'd agree, for the reasons given, plus perhaps some speckling on the throat as well.

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 1:04pm
	Smooth, agree with above the speckled throat and boldness of the belly spots instantly says smooth to me. There are individual smooth newts with just a few throat speckles and less defined belly spots too.

Sharpbill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 14 Jun 2013 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sharpbill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 2:34pm
	Thanks to all respondents, My hopes are diminishing but in answer to Liam's request here are some close ups plus a second image of this individual (where the throat looks perhaps a little pinker?). Unfortunately they were all taken on a mobile phone so are poor quality. Regards John

Sharpbill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 14 Jun 2013 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sharpbill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 11:16pm
	To further my case could you get tubercles like this on a Smooth Newt? Regards, John

Matt Harris Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 233	Post Options Post Reply Quote Matt Harris Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 2013 at 10:08am
	I think what you point to is just the normal texture of the foot you get in all species, as opposed to the two prominent white bumps you can get in palmates. My initial reaction is that this is a smooth newt :)
	Local Authority Ecologist

Sharpbill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 14 Jun 2013 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sharpbill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 2013 at 2:24pm
	Many thanks for all the input on this ID. I've learned quite a lot and will continue my Palmate search

Sharpbill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 14 Jun 2013 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sharpbill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 2013 at 11:39pm
	Continuing my search for my first palmate I think I cracked it this evening. I visited an upland pond where I have observed newts in the past and netted this individual. Looks good to me BTW Any idea what the eggs are - from same pond and approx. 5cm x 3cm. Some snail sp. perhaps. Cheers, John

liamrussell Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 100	Post Options Post Reply Quote liamrussell Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 Jun 2013 at 8:42am
	Yes that one is definitely a palmate. The throat is the right colour and you can see the two white tubercles on the hind feet. On the the smooth newt they are brown (both species have them, it is the colour that is important).