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New UK Species of snake? |
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churchfield62
Senior Member Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Location: austria Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 12:05pm |
tried to catch her during night in my bed.
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churchfield62
Senior Member Joined: 10 Dec 2015 Location: austria Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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...and after 16m years cobras are back to europe.
(bite/15mm tooth gap) all on twitter about naja nigricollis @kirchfeld62 |
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JamesB
New Member Joined: 02 Oct 2017 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Brilliant, thank you very much. Amazing how confusing the news articles managed to be, given how short most of them were! Much for me to learn but will enjoy doing so.
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Iowarth
Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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Hi James
Perfectly reasonable query which arises largely because many of the articles which exploded through the media when this was announced were very poorly and, at best, confusingly written (if not totally inaccurately). Firstly, the UK/western European (except Iberia) grass snake (Natrix helvetica - maybe) generally has a yellow collar but occasional individuals or isolated populations may lack it (or appear to lack it due to it being very pale). This is probably most pronounced in Natrix helvetica cetti. This tends to be reversed with Natrix natrix spp. It is NOT however definitive. All the best Chris |
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
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JamesB
New Member Joined: 02 Oct 2017 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Hi, apologies for bringing this back up. Could anyone answer a quick query re identifying Natrix Helvetica Helvetica vs Natrix Natrix? I've read numerous articles that state a more olive colour and blacker markings on Helvetica, as well as there being no yellow collar present. Is this always the case?
It may be a trick of the mind but I seem to recall seeing far more with yellow collar than without & certainly my local snakes all have one present. Are these therefore Natrix Natrix? Bad picture below and thanks! |
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Suzi
Senior Member Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1025 |
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Just an observation...I know a place with grass snakes with no water anywhere in the vicinity. No ponds or streams and the nearest being maybe half a mile away across a busy road. This grass snake site is heathland quite high up.
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Suz
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Caleb
Senior Member Joined: 11 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 660 |
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The 2016 paper is available here:
The new paper suggests that the grass snake species group is similar to other groups like fire-bellied/yellow-bellied toads (Bombina) and crested newts (Triturus cristatus, carnifex etc) which have narrow hybrid zones where the species' distributions meet.
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PondDragon
Senior Member Joined: 15 Jul 2013 Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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The 2016 article was separating N. astreptophora from all the rest, the recent article is separating N. helvetica and N. natrix using the same methodology. From a very superficial reading of the 2016 article there were a very small number of hybrids identified along the narrow zone of overlap, but the vast bulk of the population was pure one or the other. So it seems that the hybrids tended to be unsuccessful over the long term, keeping the species separate. The same was true for hybrids between N. helvetica and N. natrix in the 2017 paper, but not for hybrids between N. natrix natrix and N. n. persa which occurred over a wide zone of intermediates indicating that these are not separate species. |
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Iowarth
Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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LOL - no point sueing them Rob - speaking as a lumper rather than splitter it won't stop new species being invented overnight just because they have found (at last!) scientific justification for some sub-species.
Chris |
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
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Robert V
Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264 |
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...And I know for a fact that Helvetica breeds with astreptophora because.... izer seen it wit my own eyes boss.... so who should I sue???
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RobV
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