the online meeting place for all who love our amphibians and reptiles
Home Page Live Forums Archived Forums Site Search Identify Record Donate Projects Links
Forum Home Forum Home > Conservation > Projects and Grants
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Record Pool
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Record Pool

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 9>
Author
Message
herpetologic2 View Drop Down
Forum Coordinator
Forum Coordinator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1511
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 11:37am
Report to Natural England or the LRC in the area of your survey?

I think you find that now you have to send the data into the LRC....

Okay - the members have voluntary surveys on country parks and other land owners land - promise that they are for voluntary conservation surveys and not professional surveys in the slightest....
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 1:14pm
It use to be report to NE it is now report to the LRC - but that is BRIE not you!

I rather think the whole point is getting lost.

Firstly what I'm interested in is why records are not being used effectively.

Secondly that a FAIR system is in place for anyone who records.

Obviously that is all totally outrageous Big smile




Edited by GemmaJF - 28 Sep 2012 at 1:17pm
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 1:18pm

I am going to insert my two 'pennorth again! Firstly, I can see where Gemma is coming from and certainly regard the concept of people being paid for records as being very attractive in some ways. Conversely I fail to see how it can be implemented - or in the case of RAUK afforded!

The few requests I have received for data from RAUK have been from other herp conservation organisations or individuals - and these I would not dream of charging. I appreciate that RAUK is perhaps a slightly peculiar case since there is no organisation behind it but that doesn't alter the facts. Another fact so far as I am concerned is that I have no desire to divert funds from ARGs or ARC. Every penny they make from such records is more in their coffers and is, ultimately, spent on some form of conservation work.

Surveys I carry out (even though limited nowadays due to health/mobility) are done so either at the specific request of ARC and if they involve significant travel expenses are paid or, far more often, they are done simply for the sheer pleasure of being able to go out and see these beautiful animals in the wild. THAT is my payment even though they may be as much as 80 miles away.

So far as the Record Pool is concerned, I was involved in the design/specifications etc. One of the major reasons for its existence was to, so far as possible, with the aid of data exchange agreements permit of a single huge database, shared with LRCs etc, to ensure that herp records throughout the UK could a) be passed on to appropriate parties and b) be held in a single source to permit of easier and better analysis to allow a better understanding of the distribution, survival etc of the animals in the wild. (the analysis tools being tools being built by Vicar et al, are stupendously effecitve and powerful - but fail completely without data)

In my opinion, these can only be extremely laudable objectives. Charging for records to those who can and should pay will, as I say, provide further money towards herp conservation. As a consequence, on this occasion I have to disagree with Gemma. 

Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 1:43pm
That is a lot more information Chris than most of us would have had about the system. Certainly Steve's work is exactly the sort of system we need in Essex as I saw what he was achieving in Surrey.

But that is where I came in. I asked if county recorders were involved in the scheme, my inbox still remains suspiciously empty.

The current Essex database is well shall I be polite for a change and say 'slightly lacking' so I would really like to explore how that can be addressed.

Part of that is that in reality these days money is an issue for most people. Jon mentions volunteers surveying country parks, anyone want to guess how far it is from my house in rural Essex to a CP! 

I certainly do record locally too, it still costs me money though to move ACO etc. It is not like I can just walk out of the house with a wheel barrow and keep surveying the local farms forever. (I did that the first year I lived here!) So it made me wonder how a funding stream for recorders could be explored. But hey, it was a stupid idea I guess, I'm full of them. Also when I first surveyed for an ARG, I lived in London, that meant travelling to Kent to survey (you won't find that many herps in SE1 unless they are in vivariums!). At the time I could afford it, I would think twice now. The point is if I had at least an offset to the costs I can do a lot more recording, help other people do a lot more recording in the County. Any 'central' system means that getting any sort of funding passed down the line is now not very likely. So I can't now do much recording, or help other people get started. So no records for the future. Yet we can all guess the record pool will only work with records. Hence why I wondered if paying recorders at source could be in any way a viable option.

Perhaps it is just because it is Jon posting, he's been asking me for my records for 10 years lol.

I think the system does sound good though, so perhaps I'll just leave it at that.


Edited by GemmaJF - 28 Sep 2012 at 2:34pm
Back to Top
herpetologic2 View Drop Down
Forum Coordinator
Forum Coordinator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1511
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 3:25pm
That is was when I was the county recorder for Essex. You have taken on that role. The Record Pool is a database which is developed and can be accessed by local recorders particularly recording officers in these groups. We have an admin team currently of 8 people including myself, Chris, Steve and other people in Essex, Scotland, Gloucestershire etc 


Please if people would like to have a sign in then please send me your details. 


Back to Top
Robert V View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert V Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 4:11pm
I have kept tabs on the progress of this thread and have to say, Mark, I think you are being a bit harsh when you say "if anyone gives a damn about conservation you can't see an objection."
 
Firstly, I had been giving over details of my findings to local land managers... what did they do with it?
Treasure it?
 
Say; thank you Rob, we'll make sure all our operatives know the locations so we won't disturb?
 
Or even thanks, we'll use the info to link one bank of populations to another with tunnels under roads etc?
 
None of the above.
 
As well documented on here, they scraped the site.
 
So you can shout me down all you want, I'm beyond giving a monkeys, all I'm asking is - when people pay for the info, what do they want the info for?
 
Is it for - maybe building a map for a book perhaps?
 
Or, more likely, is any info being bought by developers so that they can go to a nice potential site, secretly collect up all the specimens, then apply to have the site officially surveyed prior to "development" so in mitigation they can say "the experts" couldn't find anything on the site?
 
Get it now? Do you understand... or am I being obtuse?
 
RobV
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 4:38pm

Hi Rob

I can well understand your disgruntlement. Sadly, it is a truth, and one we are still a long way from changing, that sites do get trashed even when the people responsible for the site have been advised of the animals. This, however, does not necessarily indicate that a central database of records is going to be detrimental. In fact, I would regard it as being more likely to be one of the desperately needed stpes to rectify this situation.

Regarding your penultimate paragraph iI view this with much greater concern. Do you actually have evidence of such actions? I have come across all sorts of mis-management by developers (and on occasion, with much pleasure, reported them to the Police - with success I might add) but never an instance where animals have been collected up beforehand - only ploughed under!

All the best

Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 5:06pm
I have evidence of just this sort of action Chris. Including areas having grazing animals introduced to eradicate herps. The data came from local recording groups. Developers are ruthless people and so are some land managers if little things like protected species get in the way of their plans. It is also now extremely difficult to survey EWT sites in Essex, perhaps Jon would explain why..

Ask LB about Iwade and how the data he supplied to the developer was used. It was used to run a flail over the key GCN habitat areas he identified.

So there you are side stepping the county recorder in Essex Jon? That is interesting information, that must really be helping joined up efforts.

I think I'll just carry on as before, adding what few records are sent to the county recorder to the database and working hand in hand with those who want to help herps in the real world. That means travelling and it is limited but it keeps me well out of the 'politics' of the ARG system which to be honest I couldn't be happier about.


Edited by GemmaJF - 28 Sep 2012 at 5:15pm
Back to Top
Iowarth View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 5:26pm

Hi Gemma

Yeap, I agree. However, I was questioning the specific assertion that animals were being gathered up rather than eradicated/disturbed/ploughed under etc.

Clearly, especially with the new EPS legislation actions such as you cite are in contravention and should be reported for criminal prosecution. Perhaps, where information is requested of ARG by developers it might be practical at least in some cases for local ARG members to watch such sites and report them to the local Wildlife Officer? Or even simply make whatever local pressure group there are (and there often are) to undertake that action. I tend to disapprove of such groups crying wolf as a means of delaying action BUT it is absolutely right for them (or any individual) to do so where an offence such as you describe is taking place.

Chris

Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 5:55pm
Chris, this is one option. It is usually possible to get a local who is already opposed to a development to do a 'window watch' I think things at Iwade would have been much worse if LB hadn't done just that. Not so easy when a conservation organisation does it though! And believe me they can and do act in exactly the same way.

It is an illustration though of how people can use records or data against us. Which again brings up the whole question of effectiveness, purpose, who should be provided with what information and at what detail etc etc. 

I guess the weird thing about this thread is 10 years ago I would have been putting up Mark's argument. Now I'm far more jaded or perhaps less naive?




Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 9>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.06
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.