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Agilis population in railway sidings

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Conners View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Jan 2007 at 10:27am

Hello everyone,

My brother and I have kept reptiles for some 25 years now, and like many people our interest was first stirred by the animals we encountered locally when growing up. The family home in Purley, Surrey had a long garden that backed onto an overgrown railway bank that ran behind all the gardens in the street. 

Throughout the spring, summer and autumn between 1981-87 we'd spot (and often catch) numerous slow worms and, we believed, common lizards (although never snakes). There was a population of dozens in the railway siding immediately behind our garden, and we got used to seeing the same individuals day after day. We were always hopping over the barbed-wire fence to find them basking on or hiding under a sheet of corrugated iron. Morphologically there seemed to be two "types" of lizard, and we put this down to sexual dimorphism. Some of the animals were smaller and a mottled light brown or even blackish, while others had bright green flanks with brown stripes.

We knew that the Sand Lizard was native to the UK, but had been misled by a poor account in one book into thinking that Sand Lizards were several times the size of vivipara, were a lurid green at all times and lived only on coastal sandbanks.

As you will have guessed, it's lately occurred to us that at some least of the lizards living in and around our garden were agilis. An unsuccessful attempt to search the loft for some contemporary photos has come to nothing, but having looked up many pictures of this species, we're certain that there were both vivipara and Sand Lizards living there at the time, although I still have a vague suspicion we might be romanticising the experience and that the animals were just common lizards after all.

Our memories are certainly reliable enough to know that lots of the bigger lizards had bright green flanks though.

What do people think? Do vivipara ever develop green colouration? Would it be completely exceptional to find sand lizards in that sort of environment? We are talking a suburb of Croydon here, not open heaths.

Interestingly, we never saw the lizards again after about October of 1987. Perhaps it was an especially cold winter, or maybe something particular had killed them off. Then again, maybe they had just moved a few doors down to escape the attentions of us pesky kids.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts, as from what I can gather, convincing evidence that agilis was living in gardens during the 80s would challenge what's believed about the decline and distribution of the species?

Thanks for reading and looking forward to hearing what you think!

Conners



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Suzi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2007 at 2:02pm

Conners,

It is very easy to muddle a green common lizard with what you think might be a sand lizard believe me! I live in East Devon where we don't have sand lizards BUT on the heaths at times it is possible to see very green common lizards. I was so confused I sent an image of one to an expert on this forum who confirmed it was a common lizard. From my experience common lizards tend to have an all over green colouring which is I think more coppery green than the grass green of the sand lizard which does not have an all over green colouring. I have never seen a sand lizard incidentally!

There are others more knowledgeable than I am on this forum who have seen sand lizards and can point out what strikes you when you see one. Also some will know your area and the likelihood of a sand lizard presence even in the past.

Suz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conners Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 6:22am

Hi Suzi,

Thanks for the reply. That's interesting, so some common lizards do have green colouration.

One of the things that had led me to think otherwise is that all of the lizards I've seen in the UK over the past few years have been very dark. When I was in Cornwall last summer there were vivipara all over the place, very small and very dark brown.

But if there are green ones, it does make me wonder if the population we had at the end of the garden were just common lizards after all.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 6:32am

This is a link to a discussion of green in common lizards from this site:

http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1559 &PN=1

Suz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 6:42am

Should have said "with images".

Here's another link with images

http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1145 &PN=1&TPN=2

My image is on here somewhere but I can't find it. It might be worthwhile having a look through the forum section on lizards for pix that others have posted. There is a wide variation in colouring it seems.

Suz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 6:42am

Hi, I am Conners brother. I am not entirely certain whether we had Agilis in the back garden but i think we did.

There was one male christened 'George' by the intrepid 7 and 9 year olds who caught him! and he was huge compared to the others, he had bright grass green flanks and a large head. He looks very much like Agilis photos.

Chris Davies, who is one of the key Agilis breeders in the UK (and  working towards reintroducing the species) confirmed that the map location i gave him could, in theory, support Agilis.

On balance i think there was a small population.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 6:48am

Hi Suzi,

         Those pics are very interesting and highlight the fact Vivipara can be quite green. Nonetheless the male we caught and others like him were definitely more grass green and had relatively larger heads.

Looking at that picture I am more convinced we had a small population of Sand Lizards in the Sanderstead wilds! but it could just be a romantic recollection of events.

Looking for those creatures was amazing and filled many a childhood summer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Alan Hyde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2007 at 9:06am
Hi Conners, Acer.

From my experience these odd populations were often the result of kids spending the day catching sandies, keeping them for a while and then releasing in thier own neighbourhood.
During the late 70's we had quite a large population living in Shepperton Middx in bramble bushes at the gravel pits.
We would see them as we walked the footpath with towels round our necks on our way for a swim in the lakes. The sandies basked at the base of the bushes and would run in when disturbed. I know the then boys that caught them at Chobham and brought them back, (this was in the days before most people knew better).
The lizards would survive for a few years and gradually vanish one by one. As you said that you did not see yours after 87 i would suspect that your lizards may have been victims of the same sort of relocation , maybe.

All the best,
Al


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2007 at 4:53am

 

And you cannot rule out Green Lizards aswell for similar reasons

Lacerta viridis or bilineata

JC

Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://arguk.org/recording
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