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Just for the record, I make no distinction between any schemes if they collect data concerning individual herps or home range groups with a view to sharing that information with any tom dick and harry.
But lets look at just one of the examples given in the last post... RSPB garden surveys! What?? Seriously??
Well if we consider one item that gets recorded in RSPB garden surveys locally... Blue Tits... Their estimated population in UK (for instance) numbers 15 million and should I have to remind you (given that you claim to be in herp conservation) they require no migration corridors in any direction whatsoever. We then begin to see a slight difference in using that as a comparison to trcking down a local resident population of Adders that cannot just fly away at will.
Clearly there are some of us that see herp conservation in a completely different context to others and if you are really trying to tell the readers of this forum that there is no black market in herps, take yourself on a visit to Heathrow, gatwick, Stansted customs and request a pass to see the 'live stock' containment area. Why do you think we have CITES treaties!!!

Jeez, words fail me.

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Robert V Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Robert V Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 9:57am
	Just for the record, I make no distinction between any schemes if they collect data concerning individual herps or home range groups with a view to sharing that information with any tom dick and harry. But lets look at just one of the examples given in the last post... RSPB garden surveys! What?? Seriously?? Well if we consider one item that gets recorded in RSPB garden surveys locally... Blue Tits... Their estimated population in UK (for instance) numbers 15 million and should I have to remind you (given that you claim to be in herp conservation) they require no migration corridors in any direction whatsoever. We then begin to see a slight difference in using that as a comparison to trcking down a local resident population of Adders that cannot just fly away at will. Clearly there are some of us that see herp conservation in a completely different context to others and if you are really trying to tell the readers of this forum that there is no black market in herps, take yourself on a visit to Heathrow, gatwick, Stansted customs and request a pass to see the 'live stock' containment area. Why do you think we have CITES treaties!!! Jeez, words fail me.
	RobV

Iowarth Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Status: Offline Points: 743	Post Options Post Reply Quote Iowarth Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 6:11pm
	With respect Rob, I feel you are overstating things slightly. Firstly, the customs confiscations do not reflect pressures on OUR wildlife. Secondly, the majority of then are the result of inaccurate paperwork rather than reflecting deliberate illegal imports. There certainly is a substantial minority of "pure illegal" imports - of that there is no doubt. But, again, their relevance to native animals is marginal. And, incidentally, I do visit the Center at Heathrow. Every UK species can be purchased totllay legally (and this is apart from the rights and wrongs of this) as captive bred animals from the major reptile fairs on the continent. They are legal as they are captive bred and either originate from captive populations that pre-date the EU legislation or from outside the EU. The mere fact that they can be acquired legally, and at a reasonable cost, at the very least minimises, if not eradicates, the risk of commercial collecting of wild UK animals. Please bear in mind that unlike Jon, I have a foot very firmly in both camps, a conservationist AND a herptile keeper (and breeder), and even with people who are unaware of my involvement with conservation have not, in many years, been offered or have heard of an offer of any UK origin wild animals. My belief is that there may well be a minimal risk from private collectors/keepers although these are going to be few and far between. I certainly DO agree, however, that there is the potential for developers to set out to eradicate animals in advance where they are aware of their presence. Perhaps Jon could clarify just what the Data Sharing Policy for the Record Pool is? Perhaps that could allay your fears at least to some extent. Chris
	Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)

herpetologic2 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Coordinator Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1511	Post Options Post Reply Quote herpetologic2 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 10:29am
	Hi Rob, RSPB Make your Nature Count survey produced 5,000 slow-worm records (admittedly out of 75,000 responses) so yes seriously Rob they have provided a substantial number of herpetofauna records. Their garden survey has records of frog, toad, newts and grass snakes which will add to our knowledge of the animals in the UK. It is useful data from people's addresses. BTO have also ran garden bird surveys where they also asked whether people saw reptiles and amphibians another massive dataset which we hope to have in the Record Pool. Pond Conservation this year had over 1,000 spawn counts in their Big Spawn Count survey. You can see that the Record Pool has possibly become a rehoming service for 'lost data' from such surveys. From our last meeting we have come up with a mission statement (broad) 'The Record Pool aims to collect data on herpetofauna from the UK (and Eire) and to make it publically available, locally and nationally, for conservation purposes' Now we realise there are issues relating to confidentiality of sites etc so on the public side of things the resolution of records will be tweaked to not reveal exact locations. I quite like the ideas Gemma has come up with with summary information of sites - status, conservation management etc rather than exact dots on maps etc. I know that developers do not set out to eradicate animals in advance where they are aware of their presence (generally). The location of reptiles on country parks, open space, nature reserves etc are important for the people who manage them (we would hope). Important features are revealed where clusters of sightings are found in suitable habitat which can then be used to draw attention to these features so that land managers can make sure they do not completely destroy these areas. The RP Steering group is going to be publishing a document on the data sharing policy etc but I can tell you that no data is sold from the Record Pool. The online facility is there to be used by local groups such as GlosARG so that they can send in data and eventually use the admin system to produce interactive atlases which do not reveal sensitive data. We have at least 23 local args which have a recording tab on the local group pages. We also have sent data to a series of groups including Surrey, Hampshre, London etc The data flow will be to local groups and the LRC's and all the data should be freely available for conservation purposes (subject to agreements with land owners, copyright holders etc). All the data which is inputted into the record pool is clearly identified with the recorder's name etc. All data from other sources will also be clearly identified so that they can be traced back to which organisation/survey produced them. As updates come up then this will be put onto the arg uk website and from next year there will be the Record Pool website which will show the latest stats, UK maps etc (low resolution) so that people can get instant feedback on their reporting etc. regards
	Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://arguk.org/recording

Robert V Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Robert V Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 6:26pm
	Hi Chris, I also have a foot in both camps, or used to anyhow, as I used to enjoy keeping various snakes and lizards and can see the value of having this as a means for supplementing struggling populations, such as Sand Lizards etc. But I think in the case of Adders, the very fact that some people can claim that the captive snakes are CB - Captive Bred (and whether they are or not is the major debating point) allows a legitimate defence (and get out clause) for those in possession when they seek to collect, swap or trade for producing unusual colour morphs etc. This places pressure on groups of wild Adders especially if not considered 'bog standard'. I appreciate where Jon is coming from in the point of "conservationists" having access to records to keep a track and prevent devlopment etc. And certainly, if Gemma's ideas surrounding "rough locations" are taken up rather than pin pointing individuals such as melanistic, leucistic, striped morphs (both Nnnh and Vb), albinos, reds, blues, ambers and yellows, that to my mind would suffice in order to protect the ability of amateur enthusiasts to still view and follow unusual individuals in the wild without the worry that a collector will turn up for selfish ends. And I agree that it is unlikely developers would deliberately kill just to clear a site, but they are (in my humble opinion) extremely likely to collect up and transport to unsuitable substitute sites so that they can proceed with building etc. That's the point. Nature after all should remain a broad spectrum, I thought thats what we were all aiming / striving for? Regards R
	RobV

Robert V Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Robert V Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 6:39pm
	And why should I be considered unreasonable for wanting wild shots / home range groups to be varied such as this?? And in terms of recording, this was Mersey Island!
	RobV