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Floods

Printed From: Reptiles and Amphibians of the UK
Category: Herpetofauna Native to the UK
Forum Name: Grass Snake
Forum Description: Forum for all issues concerning Natrix natrix
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4419
Printed Date: 23 Apr 2024 at 11:01am
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Topic: Floods
Posted By: longcrippler
Subject: Floods
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2012 at 10:40pm
If a hibernating snake is immersed in floodwater, will it wake up and escape, or will it drown? And how long could it survive under water?



Replies:
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2012 at 12:27am
Are you thinking of anywhere in particular Mark?
Can you email me sometime - things to discuss.


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Suz


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2012 at 10:18am
they'll drown, for sure.  Mammals like hedgehogs have a chance of swimming away, but a torpid reptile is a gonner.


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 2:07pm

I was thinking about this the other day in relation to Suzi’s population of garden slow-worms.

Temperate bat species have the ability to self regulate body temperature to within 1 or 20C of ambient and will typically select cool to mild (2-100C) sites with high humidity during winter torpor. Bats can also knowingly self rouse at any time no matter what the environmental conditions may be; however, this does result in a significant demand on the animal’s fat reserves, potentially impacting on the ability of the animal to survive the winter. Despite this, bats do regularly self rouse in winter to make physiological adjustments, respond to dangers, alter roosts, drink, sometimes eat/mate and probably also to facilitate a healthy immune system.

Obviously cold blooded animals in temperate climates cannot do this, which makes me wonder about the areas they do select for hibernation. I wonder a) what are the minimum active body temperatures required by our native reptiles? b) how important or finite are fat reserves in hibernating reptiles for brain function/aiding mobility in cooler conditions etc and c) what temperature/humidity conditions do optimum hibernation sites offer?

If I had to speculate, I would think ideal conditions for a hibernating reptile might include high humidity with temperatures often, or occasionally, above the ambient and hovering near the animal’s minimum active temperature. This would aid the reduced rate of metabolism typically required in hibernation, as well as providing minimum temperatures suitable for minor and occasional mobility. These must be important considerations for any animal that is torpid for extended periods of time (to avoid danger, make spatial adjustments, drink etc). Are there any studies/publications on hibernation requirements in the UK? Caleb, Will? It is an area I would like to explore further.

I wonder are Suzi’s slow-worms exploiting the artificial thermal properties of their surroundings and entraining their period of daily/circannual activity accordingly. There is clearly a physiological need for all non homeotherms to hibernate but i wonder what constitutes a minimum period of successful hibernation in reptiles, with clear physiological benefits come spring?  



Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 2:40pm

There are a number of interesting questions raised in this post. Just some thoughts about one or two of them.

Starting at the beginning we perhaps need a slightly better definition of "immersed in water". For example, common lizards living in marshy/flow country habitats have been recorded as hibernating well below water level in air pockets trapped in the root structure. It is far from unknown for various reptiles to emerge after flooding so presumably they too are taking advantage of such air pockets.

The question of ideal temperatures for hibernating is far more complex. At one end of the scale we have animals such as the common lizard again that can withstand temperatures at or close to freezing. Not quite so extreme are terrapins such as European Pond Tortoises which can be seen to be active below the ice in ponds during winter - and that temperature cannot be far above freezing.

Humidity is another variable. Certainly a degree of humidity is desirable but it can be excessive. Looking at Lacertids, for example, from experience I know that sand lizards do not tolerate excess humidity. Green lizards and Schreibers Green Lizard are actually slightly more tolerant and common lizards extremely so. The Wall Lizard family are about as tolerant as sand lizards while animals such as the Balkan and Caucasian Green Lizard are far less so.

Although these statement move outside the UK species they do serve to illustrate the differences bearing in mind that they are all capable of living naturally in the UK and, indeed, occur in temperate climate ranges.

Incidentally, with the genus Lacerta, all that I know of appear to derive adequate physiological benefits from hibernation periods as short as two months. (based on hibernation commencing mid December and ending mid-February followed by normal reproductive activity/success) 

Hopefully this helps - although in practise I have no doubt that it will simply confuse further!

All the best

Chris



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Chris Davis, Site Administrator

Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)


Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2012 at 12:02am
thanks for taking the time to share your expertise with us Chris! very interesting.

this totally flat, Grass Snake, Viv and Amphibian site recently flooded. it lies, cut-off, between twin river channels (BIG 1s)/urbanisation and is effectively an inland island.

some of it floods quite regularly, however the recent deluge was the worst ive seen here. even the raised footpaths criss-crossing it were underwater. if you didnt know the location youd have had no idea where the river channels were! it rose many, many feet and a nearby electricity powerstation escaped engulfment by the narrowest of margins!

this pic was taken a few days after the worst of it:




of course, the animals will be used to these conditions somewhat, but since the flooding was particularly severe this time, im gonna make resurveying this site a priority in spring!


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2012 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Noodles Noodles wrote:

Obviously cold blooded animals in temperate climates cannot do this, which makes me wonder about the areas they do select for hibernation.

Common frogs hibernating under water can do this to some extent, as they're still active at very low temperatures. Apparently their temperature preferences depend on the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water- if oxygen levels are low, they prefer very low temperatures:
http://www.brocku.ca/researchers/glenn_tattersall/PDFs/tattersall%20frog%20hypoxia.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.brocku.ca/researchers/glenn_tattersall/PDFs/tattersall%20frog%20hypoxia.pdf

Originally posted by Noodles Noodles wrote:

Are there any studies/publications on hibernation requirements in the UK? Caleb, Will?

I don't know any off-hand, but I have a feeling there was a bit in Appleby's book on the British snakes- I'll have a look later on.



Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2012 at 10:58am

Thanks Chris. All these hibernation sites you mention must have at least one thing in common; they simply can't maintain temperatures below -1 on a regular basis. No living animal I can think of will tolerate freezing of the cell interior, although I believe a small number of frogs and turtles have evolved to produce a type of natural antifreeze.

Also since water reaches its greatest density at around 40C and sinks, bottom hibernating turtles, terrapins, amphibians and possibly air bubble residing lizards!? do have the advantage of a stable and relatively mild environment that is unaffected and unaltered by the changing weather conditions (provided some form of respiration is possible). In this scenario the animal can perhaps a) maintain necessary minor activity functions, to promote health etc b) guarantee that it will remain defrosted throughout the winter c) and experience minimum loss of, or need to find, water.

I just can’t see any advantage in a cold blooded animal (or homeotherm) selecting anything other than a warmer than average winter site, (enabling some mobility to access different thermal gradients/elevations within the hibernaculum) or a site that is guaranteed to provide a safe retreat, with temperatures at the minimum activity range with water availability (e.g. lake bottom).

I still think humidity or access to water must play a massively important part in winter site selection (particularly in amphibians) since the need for regular water intake/avoidance of its loss is so intrinsic to the function of life. In our (at times) mild maritime winter climate it would be advantageous for an animal to respond to these changes in order to make physical adjustments and/or to exploit the necessary resources.

Cheers 

P.S. Thanks for yet another useful paper CalebBeer I will have a look in Appleby when i get home, please don't trouble yourself any more.



Posted By: Rob_H
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2012 at 7:04pm
Many animals can actually freeze their cells, even common lizards can freeze the lower half of their body (mostly the muscle tissue) by massively raising cellular glucose levels.... The resulting ice crystals are too small to cause damage to the cell membranes. I believe they simply stuff glycerol or another anti-freeze into their brain tissue and major organs which means they can survive temperatures as low as -4C. Not sure about the other native herps, although wall lizards are known to have no resistance to freezing temperatures.

Remember that a hibernating herp will be using extremely small amounts of oxygen as well, and their brains are extremely resistant to hypoxia. I wouldn't be surprised if many species at their minimum temperatures could survive several days submerged. I suspect what Chris mentioned is the most realistic though; many burrows will have some pockets of air, and flood waters even in mid winter are likely to be just warm enough (even water under ice has an interesting tendency to rarely get below 4C) to allow some movement to find a pocket, depending on the species.

Cheers,
Rob


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2012 at 10:34am

That is interesting, thanks Rob. The point I was making was that there has to be some form of antifreeze mechanism for cell 'freezing' to occur; meaning there is no animal that can technically be frozen, thawed and expected to function afterwards. 

I really didn't know the use of glycerol as antifreeze occurred in our native species, which is very interesting. Does this occur in many UK species (snakes etc) do you think? Presumably any hibernating reptile with fat reserves has the ability to produce it but how much of a drain on these reserves is glycerol production in say a Common Lizard and, as a result, how long can tissue be successfully 'frozen' for? I wonder is this a partial reason why Common Lizards retain such large fat reserves in the tail; to adapt them to more hostile, wetter and more prone to freezing environments. Presumably a lizard with a lost tail would not be at an advantage in a frozen hibernaculum! 

Species that do not use glycerol in cell protection would surely benefit from a warmer than ambient hibernaculum above the minimum activity temperature range, although it does seem logical to me now that all temperate evolved species of reptile would have this ability to some degree. I’m sure it’s all very complex between species!

A really interesting and current topic, given the recent weather, and thanks again for taking the time to reply Rob, Chris, Caleb.... 



Posted By: longcrippler
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2012 at 9:10pm
I certainly seemed to have sparked off an interesting and knowledgeable discussion. Thanks for all your thoughts. I asked because one of the areas I regularly see grass snakes is along the ditches of an artificial flood relief channel. Most winters, and recently a couple of times in the summer too, the whole area is submerged with excess water from the river for days at a time. The snakes always reappear, though. I was wondering if they recolonised every time.


Posted By: Richard2
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 9:58am
Last night, 19 December, after a whole day of heavy rain, a Common Frog hopped across the road in my headlights. Do they wake up when it floods?

Merry Christmas, everybody.


Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2012 at 12:08am
I think you'll find that frogs are about most of the winter when it's not actually freezing or snowy. I see them in my pond when it's mild in winter. The thing is how much energy do they waste being active when there's unlikely to be much food about?

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Suz


Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2013 at 8:26am
Newts too Suzy, even when it's not so mild. I regularly see newts active beneath icy ponds.

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Lee Brady

Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant



mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email


Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2013 at 3:45pm
After hours of heavy rain in East Devon with our road on the point of flooding it has now started to snow!
Well Lee I don't seem to see much of my newts, although I know there are plenty of them. I've been out with a torch but I never see them. Most of my finds are underneath things that I move or from watching the pond in warmer weather.


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Suz


Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2013 at 7:20pm
hey Suzi, venturing a bit off-topic here as herps werent mentioned (livestock was), but did you see the BBC's recent "Winterwatch" special on "worst winter of the 20th century" 1963?

how marvellous to see motorists on the Thames!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01q9d86/Winterwatch_1963_The_Big_Freeze/


Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2013 at 8:22pm
Yes Ben I did watch the BBC Winterwatch, only because my brother had tiped me off about the 62/63 special. Yes they had a hard time in Devon then with the cold and sheer depth of snow.
We lived in the Lake District then. I would say we didn't suffer with huge depth of snow so much as its lengthy stay plus the bitter cold.  I was 11 years old. My mother was overdue with her third child and went into labour in the early hours of Xmas Day. It was bitterly cold with lying snow and ice. There was no ambulance service and we were 13 miles from the hospital! It was touch and go whether Dad would get our old car started (Riley Pathfinder). He did and they had a white knuckle ride to the hospital where my sister was born as soon as they arrived. Once home my sister never went outdoors until March as it was so cold. There were bits of ice on Lake Windermere until May! We were skating on the lake and sledging but it was so cold. Yes vehicles did go onto the lake. The ice was over 12" thick but I can't remember the exact depth. It was a bit scary being on it as it cracked and groaned.
I often wonder how we managed with no central heating, good weatherproof clothes etc.!
My husband is from Surrey and the snow started there on Boxing Day I believe. We already had ours up north.
Sorry completely off herp topics here!


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Suz


Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 8:37pm
wow! thats quite a story Suzi! i had to google the Riley Pathfinder. never heard of those!
im in Cumbria at the moment funnily enough. snow everywhere altho rain is coming in now. saw a Red Squirrel a few days ago! of course i scrabbled frantically in my pocket for the camera but of course it departed before i was ready - dammit!


Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2013 at 10:15pm
Ben where I lived 1961-1970 on west side of Lake Windermere we ONLY had red squirrels at that time. Now they have both, so not sure how that is working out. I had never seen a grey one till I moved to Dorset and was amazed how fearless they were compared to reds, which were much more elusive.
We also had pine martins. Again very elusive and seen by very few of the locals in their lifetimes. A couple used to put food out for the red squirrels and got pine martins coming to take the food as well. We saw just one in our stay there.



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Suz



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