Juvenile adder diet
Printed From: Reptiles and Amphibians of the UK
Category: Herpetofauna Native to the UK
Forum Name: Adder
Forum Description: Forum for all issues concerning Vipera berus
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2691
Printed Date: 18 Apr 2024 at 12:33am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.06 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Juvenile adder diet
Posted By: Peter
Subject: Juvenile adder diet
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2008 at 4:08am
I just wondered whether any research has been done regarding juvenile adder diet? I imagine that it would be quite some task to consistantly find mammalian and reptillian prey of a suitable size. Is there any evidence to support the theory of predation of invertebrates?
------------- BLF Dragonscapes Habitats officer Amphibian and Reptile Conservation e: peter.hill@arc-trust.org
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Replies:
Posted By: axel
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2008 at 7:20am
Last year a paper was published which conducted feeding trials with captive neonate V. berus, and found no instances of feeding on insects. In contrast the related Vipera renardi consumed inverts 98% of the time. The authors concluded that V. berus is a purely vertebrate feeder. Additionally, the venom of V. berus was found to not very toxic to crickets, in contrast to the frequent insect feeding species (such as V. renardi) have a venom which is highly toxic to crickets.
The reference is Starkov et al. (2007) Toxicity of venoms from vipers of Pelias group to crickets (Gryllus assimilis) and its relation to snake entomophagy. Toxicon 49: 995-1001. You can get the abstract on google scholar, or if anyone wants the full PDF pm me your email and I can send it as an attachment
cheers.
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2008 at 3:38pm
Hi Peter,
I don't know of any references, but I've often been told that young Vb are very fond of juvenile Common lizards. You certainly do find an increased presence of juv Vb at Zv sites, so observation supports this info, but I've never seen one eating.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2008 at 5:46pm
Hi Steve,
There certainly is a plentiful supply of juvenile commons at some of the sites that I visit, but not all.
------------- BLF Dragonscapes Habitats officer Amphibian and Reptile Conservation e: peter.hill@arc-trust.org
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2008 at 6:04pm
Appleby, 'British Snakes'.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2008 at 4:46am
I am also quite interested in this subject and have recently interrogated
the KRAG database to identify possible trends.
125 sites have records of adder. Of those, 41 sites have records of adder,
slow-worm and viviparous lizard (and sometimes grass snake). 12 sites
have records of adder and slow-worm but no lizard. 8 of the 12 sites only
have ad hoc records (i.e. no detailed survey work has been undertaken)
so the absence of lizards is by no means certain. A further 2 sites have
been thoroughly surveyed and lizards not recorded - but adder could not
be confirmed either. The original adder records at these two sites are
either incorrect or perhaps represent vagrants, but probably do not
represent a population. That leaves 2 sites where reasonably detailed
survey work has been undertaken.
At these last 2 sites, only adult adder have been recorded. Interestingly at
one site, adult male and female adder were observed close to a suspected
hibernacula. I'm keen on collecting more data to try to determine what
the fate of these two populations will be.
I also examined the adder data and found 13 sites with both adder and
viviparous lizard, but no slow-worm. Of these, 12 sites represented ad
hoc records where no detailed survey work had been undertaken.
However, one site had been thoroughly surveyed and slow-worm not
recorded. This site was found to support both adult and juvenile adder.
Not conclusive data by any means, but hopefully of interest. Does
anybody else have data on species assemblages and lifestage structure
for other areas?
Lee
------------- Lee Brady
Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant
mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2008 at 4:50am
Here's a partial cut of the data from some of our 2008 monitoring sites (still on-going).
Non-presence does not necessarily imply absence, just that no sighting has been reported.
Site
|
# Surveys
2008
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Vb Presence
|
Af Presence
|
Zv Presence
|
Adult
|
Juvenile
|
Any
|
Any
|
BLH
|
8
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
BRX
|
2
|
Present
|
|
|
Present
|
CHB
|
3
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
CRK
|
10
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
EMM
|
4
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
FCO
|
3
|
Present
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
FRN
|
11
|
Present
|
Present
|
Present
|
Present
|
GNH
|
7
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
|
HNK
|
6
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
HHC
|
4
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
HRT
|
3
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
LCP
|
3
|
Present
|
Present
|
Present
|
Present
|
LGV
|
3
|
Present
|
|
|
Present
|
WMC
|
2
|
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
YAC
|
11
|
Present
|
|
Present
|
Present
|
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2008 at 6:16am
Steve
So it looks like you also have at least one site (GNH) with adder and slow-worm that may lack lizard. Interestingly,
your data also suggests that only adult adder have been recorded at this site. Is there any historical information to
suggest that lizards used to occur? Is the site an area where adult adder hunt, perhaps situated close to other areas
that may also support breeding adder and lizard?
I can quite imagine the scenario where low numbers of adult adder are recorded at sites where lizards are absent (or
present in such low numbers they are very difficult to record). The areas where females give birth are often close to
hibernacula and it is perhaps these sites where the absence of lizards may become a critical factor. What I find
interesting about the Kent records is that at one of the sites where lizards have not been recently observed, adult
adder have been recorded close to hibernacula.
Of course there is an issue with reptile recording about what actually constitutes a site. In attempting to identify key
sites, KRAG are focussing on those areas where breeding and/or hibernating has been recorded. Different sites (or
areas within a site) may offer different opportunities for different species. With adder, piecing this jigsaw together is
obviously very important. There just aren't enough hours in the day!
Lee
------------- Lee Brady
Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant
mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2008 at 7:26am
Hi Lee,
The GNH site is fairly isolated and not large. I doubt that there is very much opportunity for migration from the site, and fully expect to identify hibernacula in time. It is a new core site, and only added to the long-term monitoring sites from June this year.
I would expect to find juvenile adders there (eventually), as we know adult adders are seen more frequently than juveniles. I would not be surprised to find Common lizards at the site, Sand lizards are present; whose juveniles are likely to be predated.
----------
Just checked historical records, and Zv has been found on (GNH) site from 1990-2005. (The table was 2008 survey data only). There are also legacy records for immature Vb as recently as 2002.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2008 at 12:15pm
Bill W has now emailed to let me know that the two Kent sites with adder but
no lizards did in fact used to support lizards during the 80's and 90's (I've
asked for the records!).
Survey work is continuing at the two sites and it will be interesting to see
whether lizards do in fact turn up (along with juvenile Vb) - I don't yet have
the 2008 data. If lizards still remain elusive, we will have to broaden our
survey area and identify other nearby lizard sites that may offer better
potential for breeding adder.
------------- Lee Brady
Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant
mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email
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Posted By: will
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2008 at 12:44pm
There's an interesting parallel with the London population of Aesculapian snakes; in their natural habitat on the Continent the neonates usually feed on lizards; there are none on Regents Canal and so presumably the population is limited by hatchlings having to find and swallow down nestling mammals. However I guess this is easier in Aesculapians as the hatchlings are that much larger than baby adders. Personally I don't know of any adder sites which have young and juvenile adders that don't have common lizards. Shame, really, that they won't touch Orthoptera unlike some vipers, given their abundance at this time of year.
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2008 at 3:45pm
Hi Will,
Would they not also take frogs? we found frogs and juvenile El in the wooded area along the canal when last up there...but I don't know Aesculapians well enough to comment.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: will
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2008 at 6:02pm
Hi Steve
Good question; I guess they might - I hadn't thought of that in the case of London Aesculapians; I think it's quite rare for habitual amphibian feeding snakes to swap to mammals and birds later in life though. I did find a small London Aesculapian in the act of producing a dropping - and interestingly it had mouse hairs in it, but of course that doesn't mean the hatchlings don't take froglets, for example.
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Posted By: calumma
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2008 at 3:12am
Tony, yes I have considered the role of slow-worms. What I don't know is,
will the presence of slow-worms be enough to offset the lack of lizards?
------------- Lee Brady
Kent Herpetofauna Recorder | Independent Ecological Consultant
mailto:recorder@calummaecologicalservices.co.uk - Email
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Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2008 at 3:55am
Interesting subject as to reptile diet I wonder how many barren sites are just the out come of animals starving to exstinction keith
------------- LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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Posted By: Masked Marvel
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2008 at 8:18am
Very small adders do indeed eat full grown viviparous lizards. The adder in the picture regurgitated the lizard after I captured it during a relocation. I didn't measure them both exactly, but the lizard might just win by a nose. Felt quite bad about it as that lizard must have taken some swallowing...
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Posted By: tim hamlett
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2008 at 10:00am
hi...that really is amazing.
i used to think my mate geoff taking on an all you can eat buffet was something but that little thing takes it by a mile!!!
getting back to the thread was that before or after first hibernation?
tim
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Posted By: Masked Marvel
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2008 at 10:09am
I think it was late August, so would have been before.
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Posted By: axel
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 8:37am
will wrote:
There's an interesting parallel with the London population of Aesculapian snakes; in their natural habitat on the Continent the neonates usually feed on lizards; there are none on Regents Canal and so presumably the population is limited by hatchlings having to find and swallow down nestling mammals.
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While helping out with a study on the WMZ aesculapians, we found a juvenile which regurgitated 3 or 4 'fuzzy' mice. Interestingly, the total weight of mouse was greater than the snake (I will try and find some pics to post). As far as I know all records of juvenile diet from the WMZ population consist of mammals also, although apparently an adult Z.l. is recorded as eating a grass snake.
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Posted By: will
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 2:10pm
Interesting - do you know if there are lizards which young WMZ Aesculapians could also potentially feed on in the Zoo grounds ?
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Posted By: axel
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2008 at 5:11am
Yes, we found a couple of lizards during surveys, but I certainly don't think there is a particularly large population. There are also grass snakes, frogs, toads and palmate newts within the grounds. No slow worms or adders though.
Sticking with the adder thread... All the adder populations I have visited have lizards present. Most of my herping is around Anglesey, North Wales, and I have also noticed that sites with adders typically have a low density of lizards. Sites where adders are absent or declining seem to be teeming with lizards, so there certainly would appear to be some sort of correlation.
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Posted By: dave fixx
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2008 at 6:05am
the site I see most adders in in north wales has a huge supply of lizards ,you find lizards not even looking for them,there is also a huge population of toads at this location and frogs,as you can see from a picture adamanteus sent in this summer on another thread whatever they are eating there they are enjoying it.
------------- Dave Williams
davewilliamsphotography.co.uk
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2008 at 7:12am
Only an anecdotal comment...
One particular adder site here in Surrey comprises two forest rides. Presumably the adders use the woodland and margins to hunt, but are forced onto the rides in order to bask. There is also a fair number of common lizards along these rides.
The adders are almost exclusively found at ground level, whilst the lizards make more use of the third dimension, climbing high, through the heather borders more than is usual at other sites. Uncommon to see a ground basking lizard at this site, although it does happen.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2008 at 6:55am
Interesting historical text from the Isle of Wight:
HISTORY OF THE ISLE OF WIGHT. By the Rev. RICHARD WARNER; 1795
Many vipers indeed are met with in the chalky and ftony places, and the largeft I ever faw, I had nearly trodden upon, in the parifh of Wootton, in the outfldrts of Coombly wood, in Auguft, 1792. Had my foot, however, come in contact with this animal, no injury could have cnfued to me from the preffure, as it was utterly incapable of revenging the infult. This incapacity had been produced by its voracioufnefs, as was evident on an examination of the reptile. We then found that it had attempted to gorge a frog, (at leail three times as large in circumference as the thickeft part of its own body,) but being unable to accomplifh the tafk entirely, one of the legs and thighs of its prey continued to depend from the viper's mouth, and effectually prevented it from clofing the jaws and excluding its poifon. The animal indeed (as is the cafe with all the ferpent kind after fatisfying their voracity,) was in a ftate of torpor, which rendered it apparently infenfible of our approach or obfervation, and unable to exprefs any tokens of indignation when we deftroyed it. On meafuring it when dead, it was found to be exaclly twenty-nine inches long.
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: Alan Hyde
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2008 at 7:06am
Hi Steve,
That's a great read. However, are you sure the author is correct? Maybe Toyah Wilcoxth or Chriff Eubank?
I reckons he foundeth a graff snaketh ferpent
------------- O-> O+>
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Posted By: Vicar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2008 at 8:28am
Hi Al,
Hard to tell how accurate the ID was. Nothing descriptive was stated that definitely secures the ID. AT 29 inches (74cm) it is within recorded adder size range (top end), and he does state that it was the largest specimen he had seen. But then we don't know how many Grass snakes he'd seen either!
Modern records confirm Vb presence at the site, but no Nn records in the immediate vicinity (>2Km radius)...so maybe an OK ID?
He then goes on at length describing the effects of the venom and cures...apparently salad oil, some warmed and applied to the wound, and drinking the rest does the job! :P
------------- Steve Langham - Chairman mailto:steve@surrey-arg.org.uk">
Surrey Amphibian & Reptile Group
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Posted By: Alan Hyde
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2008 at 8:46am
Hi Steve,
It does indeed sound like it may have been a correct id then , nice big adder
Great remedy for adder bite !
------------- O-> O+>
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Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2008 at 11:07am
Bygad eftsoon a most venomouse serpent layeft on the path chewing upon the devils spawn putting fear into fair maidens harlots and all , more likly a large sloworm in the wrong place at the wrong time lolkeith
------------- LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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Posted By: tim hamlett
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 1:40pm
hi
sorry for resurrecting an old thread but there's still one bit of it i want to be absolutely clear about. can neos survive their first hibernation without feeding?
cheers
tim
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Posted By: Jonathan
Date Posted: 09 May 2010 at 12:15pm
They are pretty well nourished when born. I would have thought that it would depend on the length of time between birth and the time they went into hibernation. The longer the period, the less chance. The neos I've observed are pretty active hunters that tackle a range of prey and sizes of prey too. Their chances of survival would increase dramatically the more they eat before hibernation for sure.
------------- "England Expects"
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