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North Wales Aesculapians |
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Noodles
Senior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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With regards the Large Blue, it’s the idea of defining natural range
that I was really considering here. It seems logical to me that when an island,
or otherwise isolated, population becomes extinct and is unable to recolonise
naturally then any reintroduced population of that ‘species’ is no longer within
its natural range (particularly one introduced from a different [Baltic] race). It is really irrelevant that the Large
Blue is protected under the WCA since it is listed in Annexe IV of the Habitats
Directive as a species of community interest and therefore subject to European protected
status (not because of its WCA inclusion but in addition to it). I wanted to explore
the idea of a reintroduced population, now clearly existing beyond its natural
range, receiving full EU protection. One could even question the definition of a natural range when considering intra-UK Sand Lizard reintroductions, for
example. I know the
Aesculapian snake is not native to the UK and never to the knowledge of anyone has
it been; however, I can see some parallel, or level of hypocrisy, with the case of
the Large Blue. I certainly think it is valid to be asking such questions when
considering the eradication of an established ‘non-native’ population of EPS. The
Directive is after all there to be challenged, improved and clarified. I think this case must be unique in the UK and needs better legal interpretation
and further consideration from the relevant SNCO. Otherwise, as Jay rightly points
out, where will this end? Who is granting Wolfgang licences to take scale clippings and under what protection/control framework are the licences being granted? Do CCW already consider the population EPS? If so, on a scientifically understood population, what scientific or imperative reason is there to consider approving a licence for eradication or removal? |
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Matt Harris
Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 233 |
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The amendments that you are referring to only applies to species in their natural range, which for the Aesculapian Snake, doesn't include the UK. The only statutory protection that these snakes would receive is under animal welfare legislation. |
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Local Authority Ecologist
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Caleb
Senior Member Joined: 11 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 660 |
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I admitted several posts up that I was incorrect about taking from the wild. However, possession is an offence for a individual of any Annex IV(a) species taken from the wild in any European country- the naturalised Aesculapian snakes do fall into this category, and that's why Wolfgang needed a licence for his scale clippings.
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Caleb
Senior Member Joined: 11 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 660 |
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I think I see where you're coming from now. Does it make it worse that the Aesculapian snake was probably native to the UK before the last ice age (bones having been found in East Anglia)? It seems that the presence of a species on the list of 'animals which are established in the wild' (Wildlife & Countryside Act schedule 9) does not necessarily imply that it is not native, certainly not since the red kite was added to it in 2010- presumably to prevent unauthorised releases from interfering with 'official' release programmes. |
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Noodles
Senior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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That's more or less exactly what i'm trying to say and with no disrespect to you Caleb. I also wonder about the more exotic species that roamed about these lands before the Younger Dryas. However, I did not know the Aesculapian was one such species. It just adds another level to it all in my mind.
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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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Caleb wrote: 'However, possession is an offence for a individual of any Annex IV(a)
species taken from the wild in any European country- the naturalised
Aesculapian snakes do fall into this category, and that's why Wolfgang
needed a licence for his scale clippings.'
Also you would need a special licence to be able to release any non-native into the wild (as in grey squirrels trapped in your loft which cannot then be released into your garden) - eg an Aescualpian snake taken in the hand to scale clip and ID; I gather that CCW were happy to licence this, but NE have not been so eager for the London population (though that seems rather academic, now...) |
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JaySteel
Senior Member Joined: 07 May 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Is this fight over then? Is there nothing we can do do have any effect on the future of these snakes?
Jason
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will
Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830 |
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Hi Jason. I am reasonably confident that apathy and lack of funding will combat the fundamentalist approach being adopted to the two populations of snakes. The problems in trying to mobilise public opinion in favour of keeping the snakes as they are in the wild include: 1) they are snakes! and 2) raising the profile means that every Tom Dick and Harry will come along and think theyre doing the animals a favour by catching them and putting them in a small aquarium tank in their home. At the end of the day, if the populations are definitely going to be captured, then maybe it will be time to aim for more publicity and perhaps involve the media - but only as a last resort...?
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Robert V
Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264 |
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Of course Will, there is a third option... |
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RobV
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JaySteel
Senior Member Joined: 07 May 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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I think we need to make people aware of the possible consequences of allowing this to happen. As we've touched on, this could be just the start with a long list of other species at risk of being in the firing line next. If people are aware that some of the more "cute & fluffy" creatures are also potential targets then they might get on board.
Who is it exactly that are making these decisions? I like to hear some names of the organisations and individuals behind this. How can several decades of previous governments have no problem with the existence of these two aesculapian snake populations and then this current bunch come along and decide on the country's behalf that the snakes have to go? I think we should be fighting to have some kind of hearing or public enquiry to ascertain as to whether this species is actually "invasive" and a genuine threat to our native wildlife or not. if there are no good reasons for their removal other than "they don't belong here" then they should be left alone. The more I read this thread the angrier I get about this situation. How can we be so powerless? Are there not enough of us that care to make any difference at all? Jason |
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